Episode 567: Fred & Rose West (Part 4)

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I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast. What's the answer, and what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

Hey weirdos, I'm ash.

And I'm Alayna.

And this is morbid, this is morbid, yeah.

Oh, we're almost done, everybody.

I mean, my goodness, what a terrible case.

This is a terrible case, it really is. But you know what, we're on the last part of it. Okay, okay.

I like that.

That's all we're looking for in life, you know? is a resolution. Cool, yeah.

Do you have any shit for the top?

Not really. I'm really excited to see the Ghost movie.

That's exciting in theaters, that is exciting in June, I'll be with you.

Very psyched.

There's like a big reveal people are saying.

Everyone's assuming there's going to be a reveal of what's happening to Papa, because we're going to get some lore in there, of course.

What is happening to Big Papa?

I'm dying to know what's happening to Papa. It did say in the trailer This is not a story about death, and I was like, What the fuck does that mean? Rebirth, Sue?

The lore runs so deep.

It's so deep, yeah, I'm constantly learning new lore.

And you're constantly like, I'm like, Wait, what?

I'm constantly sharing new lore with you that I've found.

Sometimes I'm like, Wait, who is the dad?

It's very creative.

It is really creative and it's cool that it's like a band. Yeah, like, it's fun, because it's not like a typical band. Obviously, no, it's fun as hell.

I love how much I love it, too.

Your little eyes are so bright right now.

They're twinkling.

I was like, your little fucking eyes.

Your little beady fucking eyes are just twinkling, your little beady fucking eyes.

No.

But what do you got?

You know what, I'm on a sourdough journey, as everyone in my life knows.

She is on a sourdough journey.

It's overtaken my life. Drew went to his mom's yesterday and he was like, Yeah, Ash is on a bread journey, and she thought that was the funniest thing. a bread journey.

What a badass bitch.

And it was so nice, like she was like, Okay, let me tell you what I do, and she explained it so, like, cohesively. And then another weirdo, who's like a head baker at a bakery, walked me through this whole process.

See, that's the nice part of social media.

It is, and that's the only part that I pay attention to.

That's the only part I like, to be honest.

Pretty much.

When things like that happen, you're like, Well, shit, this is what it's for.

Let's come together over bread, come together over bread sourdough with me. But yeah, I'm really excited, so I tried again.

Don't worry, guys.

For close to, like, 11 hours, because I keep it pretty cold in my house, so it's okay to bulk ferment for that long. Listen to me, look at you, knowing terms and stuff.

Just being a sourdough girlie.

It's really fun if you want to go on a little journey with yourself and you have the time, it's fucking fun.

And you have the time. Bread takes time, time, a lot of time.

Yeah, I was like, I don't think I'll be able to do this when I have children, but we'll try.

But you know what, who knows, give it a shot.

And then, in other news, pretty soon we're going to be releasing our bonus episode, so get ready for that. We have been listening to the audible original title Desperate Deadly Widows, with four women authors.

Which is so fucking cool, it is cool, I love that.

Yeah, and when I saw four different authors, I was like, Wow, what was that process like? Yeah, but listening to the title, it's so cohesive.

It is it feels like it was written by one person, it's like they became a super author together. Yeah, honestly.

And each woman in the book has such a distinct personality. I feel like it's almost like it's not the same subjects at all, but it's almost like Sex and the city, where you're like, Oh, I'm a Miranda, yeah.

You can pick out who you are in this.

Yeah, so we're going to be discussing that way more at length. Ad nauseum, if you will.

Book club style.

Yeah, and we're going to have a special guest who you guys know and love.

Yeah, you know them already, you love them.

And it's going to be a lot of fun. They are like the perfect guest for this title.

Literally the perfect guest.

And I love them so much.

I'm sorry if you guys hear my stomach growling.

Oh, no, she's been loud, she has. I said something earlier, and your stomach was like, what?

You're still going through it.

Yeah, I woke up this morning and I thought I was much better and then, well, I am. Yeah, but my every time I cough, like afterwards, it's like a rumbling like settles.

It's like a thunder clap.

Yeah, it's like a crackling of my chest.

You know, it's hard out here in these streets, in the world. It is, it is, everybody's getting sick, it's cold and flu safe.

But it's the end, it's the.

I was just going to say, at least some kind of resolution, what is that? It's not like they, I'm going to tell you right now. They don't get away with it and go riding off into the sunset never to be heard from again. So don't worry about that.

Good, good, good.

So don't worry about that, they're gone bye, bitches.

That's what it is. I was trying to think of the Jax Manikin lyrics of the Resolution song.

Oh yeah, I need light in the dark as I search for the resolution.

That's how I feel, I love it. I need some light in the dark.

Yeah, I'm not going to give it to you for a little while, so I apologize for that. So when we last left you, we were talking about the really horrific murder of Shirley Ann Robinson, Yeah.

Yeah, I can't say that I am, yeah. And also it sounds like like police were starting to kind of like they were, at least they were there more often.

For sure, hold people captive, but I wonder if there's other areas that that we could find victims. Yeah, I agree now, like so many of the other victims of Fred and Rosemary West. 16 year old Allison Chambers, 16, had come from a troubled upbringing and had actually spent her early years living between her parents, who had separated when she was very young.

Just like retreated into that world.

I want to be clear again, once again, I'm going to say it before all of these entries into this series. A lot of trigger warning for a lot of sexual sadism, and, you know, sexual assaults, yeah, murder.

That makes a lot of sense that they did.

But because she would retreat often into her fantasy world, and she would write poetry, which, honestly, is a sign of intelligence. And, like, beauty. And, you know.

Everything right in the world.

A great personality to be around. Kids are are usually pretty rough. So she was ruthlessly bullied and mocked at the at the girls home, the other girls would mock her, which I'm like, girls, let's be nice to other girls.

You're all going through it.

Exactly.

We'll get through together instead of against each other.

This left her leaving even more isolated and more lonely, so she's unable to make friends at school. She did have one friend, OK?

What the fuck?

Now it turned out that that photo was just an image from a realtor's brochure. But they knew it was enough to draw Allison even deeper into their world. And Fred was equally as fucked up and, you know, manipulative. And his regular self leaving her, you know, he would lavish her with praise and attention, he would give her a lot of attention, which is what she was like in positive attention.

She wasn't getting that anywhere else.

And when she would go back to school, she would tell the other girls she'd met an older man who gave her all kinds of gifts and they were in love. Oh, no, now. From the moment they'd met her, Fred and Rose had made all kinds of promises to Allison and the things they would give her and do for her. When she turned 17 and could leave Jordan's Brook one day, in early August 1979, just days before her 17th birthday, Allison quietly packed all her belongings and ran away from Jordan's Brook, presumably to 25 Cromwell Street.

Oh my God, to think that. She thought that she was finally going to get this life that she's wanted for almost 17 years.

And that they went out of their way to convince her of that and to prey on the little hopes and fantasies that she had. They're so fucked up, it's beyond comprehension it really is now. When Allison's body was later exhumed from the garden at 25 Cromwell Street, there was a large purple belt wrapped around her head and under her jaw. Oh God.

Oh, it's so dark.

Like the others, Fred had kept several of the small bones from Allison's hands and feet. Now, when Allison failed to show up for work the following day at the training school, a missing persons report was filed and it listed Allison as quote an absconder from care. An investigation was opened. But when Allison's mother told them she had gotten a letter from Allison that said she'd gone to work as a live-in nanny with a lovely family. Investigators didn't ask any questions and they closed the case right now. While the victims of Fred and Rose West, like the outside victims of Fred and Rosemary West, they've been the focus of every story, rightfully of this. It's worth keeping in mind, at this point, that after the murder of Charmaine, they still had four children living at home with them.

It was like some kind of healing experience.

I hope it was.

I don't know how you can heal from all of that, but I hope it was some kind of cathartic experience.

Yeah, like, I'm sure it was painful, but I hope some kind of like help came out of it for her.

Yeah, you just assume.

They're just some of it they're looking at, like, Okay, I just have to deal with this until I leave.

Like, this is just life.

And then, like, you know, they manipulated them so hard that, like, some of them were like, trying to, like, defend them later, like, but they're their kids. You know what I mean, like, it's one of those things that's like, that's just such a different situation, I can't even fathom it. I really can't.

No, I really can't.

But their daughter, Mae, wrote later If dad had any ambition at all for any of his daughters. It was simply that we should breed and have at least as many babies as he and mom had done.

And like, why, like you don't love those?...?

So he would have more victims. Yeah, yeah, I mean, they got to make their own victims. Essentially, wow, yeah.

Oh my god, that.

Yeah, you want to throw up? Yeah. The girls thought this was a joke because he was so crude and he was so crass and so lewd and so disgusting all the time. And he would say these disgusting things and they would just be like, Oh, that's just like, whatever.

Oh my god.

Now, Mae did her best to hide the abuse and the emotional effects from the world. She just tried to retreat into herself, but Heather seemed to have a much harder time with it. Yeah, obviously.

Okay.

Not a glamorous job, not well-paying. But the location of the camp meant that she would be able to get the fuck away from Fred and Rose.

So it was her ticket out.

And it would be for a few months, right? So she was like, get me gone, I don't give a shit what you need me to do.

And it was probably some kind of plan where she was thinking, like, I can save up this much money and go on to the next thing.

Now, unfortunately, the day before she was about to leave for the camp, the job fell through No, and she was devastated, devastated.

She must have just been sitting there being like, What the fuck is this life?

And she must have been sitting there before it fell through, being like fantasizing about this new life she could have away from them. Yeah, like you start picturing.

Just like Allison with the farm.

When you think something's coming, exactly like Allison with the Farm. And we can all relate to the idea of when you think something's happening. And you're like, Oh, I'm so excited for this thing, yeah, and then it falls through.

It's awful.

And most of us only know that on like the most micro of scales.

Like, Oh, you're so bummed.

Oh, like, I get to meet this cool, you know? like, I get to meet my idol, you know what I mean? And you're like, Oh, I'm so excited, it's going to be so much fun. And then all of a sudden it falls through and you're like, Oh.

But then you think of all the weight that came with this of, like, it's my escape from my incredibly abusive, toxic household.

Insurable trauma that I've been facing my entire life.

It's her ticket to like personal autonomy.

Yes, and it's like, Oh, like, when I read that, I was like, I feel it in my gut. yeah, like the gut punch of that. Oh, I feel so bad.

Well, and they've also seen people come on as like nannies and then just fucking disappear forever.

And they've heard shit.

They've heard shit.

There's no way they're not hearing screaming, screaming, crying, crying.

And they're probably so much more connected than even like a typical sibling duo, because they have that shared experience of trauma.

That bond of trauma. And so May knew immediately something's wrong here, she said. Her father seemed almost cheerful about sharing the news, but she said Rose seemed very upset about Heather leaving.

That's her daughter.

Which Fred explained away as her being just disappointed. That Heather that, you know, like she thought Heather was going to be staying, but now she's not, so she's sad that she's leaving.

Was Rose involved with the sexual abuse of her kids in way of participating, or was that just Fred?

She definitely, she was involved in, at the very least, like a bystander of letting it happen because I'd like. And again, some of the things that were done to some of these kids. And like Anne Marie in particular, was out in the open for everybody to see. And it was horrific, I mean.

How do you not step in and protect your kid?

Because you're a fucking monster. Rose is a monster. she is an absolute. she's a monster, right along with Fred.

I'm just like, how do you not have that motherly instinct after carrying a baby in your room for nine fucking months?

I don't get it.

I really don't, and then just to let a man do that and just stand there and do nothing.

Like, Yeah, I mean.

Like, that's your kid.

Because I didn't, I didn't read too far into, like, how she participated, yeah, but she certainly is not.

At the very least, she didn't stop it.

And she's certainly not a passive person in any of that, she's very much actively, at least in some way, shape or form.

That's so heinous.

She's fucking terrible.

But it's just like, What can they do?

They also knew you don't push him, so we're not going to push him.

Because then you'll be in the same position, yeah.

And they're like, who knows what's going to happen now? In the days and weeks after that, Fred and Rose went out of their way to reinforce their story. That Heather had simply gone away and would be coming back. She was going to be coming back.

Yeah, because, like you said, it was only a month long gig.

Yeah, this isn't forever. They would receive phone calls in the night, apparently from some drunken woman that they claimed was Heather. And then they would get in an argument on the phone and hang up with her. And the children were like, Okay, I guess she's all right and she's going to be home, like they couldn't figure out.

She's turned on us.

Whatever, she's turned on us and now she doesn't want to have any contact with us at all.

Gee, I wonder why if that was actually the case?

May knew this was a lie.

But what was she going to do?

And she was like, Honestly, all my parents did was lie to me, right? Like they just lied and manipulated. So she's like, what else is new? I can't say anything.

That no incorrect.

Yeah, he then said. When she was dead, he dismembered Heather's body and buried her remains in the garden.

His daughter dismembered his daughter.

Now, May says she never believed that story for a fucking second.

Also, now I'm just trying to tally it. I'm pretty sure he's killed three of his kids at this point or two because he didn't kill Charmaine.

But he's killed. Shirley was pregnant, and Anne and Anne, yeah.

So the fact that we can't even tally up how many of his own children that he's killed.

Yeah, because he's killed several pregnant women pregnant with his child.

And like, we're talking, like, eight months pregnant, yeah.

With brutally tortured and murdered.

In fact, in both cases, he waited very long into the pregnancy. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a whole different pathology.

Yeah, that's something that should be studied, that's a something's happening there. Wow, yeah.

Yeah.

This theory was supported by the fact that Heather was buried naked. Like the other victims. She had no clothing. No clothing was found in the grave. Also, like the other victims, there were several bones missing from her hands and feet as well. The second theory is that Heather had become a liability.

Right?

Now, regardless of what the motive for her murder was, Heather would be the final body buried in the West Garden, and it would be her disappearance that would actually bring an end to their killing spree. Okay, now it's unclear why, and this is really wild. There was an eight year gap in the murders between Allison Chambers and Heather.

Really.

Eight years. And what they think is it's entirely possible that they killed other women and buried them elsewhere.

Yeah.

Because they also were, frankly, running out of room at their own place. Well, yeah, I mean, they ran out of room in the basement and were now filling the garden.

And I don't know, like, what the neighbor situation is like, how close they are to other homes.

They're pretty close, so it's like they don't have a ton of space, right? So I would bet a lot of money that there are other victims around that they will eventually hopefully find. Now. What is clear, though, is that Heather's murder was definitely different from the other victims as well.

It really is so awful that that was their way of like, obviously, it's not degrading to be a lesbian, I'm not saying that.

But they were treating it like it was.

But in their view, they're like, Oh, let's say she's a lesbian, because that's a bad thing. Like you can tell. That's why they're doing it to be like, Oh, she's just a fucking lesbian.

Yeah, they were like, Ugh, and he's basically saying she was a lesbian and she was violent, yeah, and like, I had to kill her to save us all.

Like, I had to get rid of this violent lesbian and it's like, you're degrading her, even in death.

Yeah, like, no, now. Fred and Rose had gotten away with so many horrific crimes over the years that they probably assumed Heather's murder was just one more girl. That no one was going to miss their own child shaking my head right now. And that might have been true had it not been for the courage of one of Fred's sexual assault victims, who eventually came forward with her story and began an investigation. That would literally unearth the secrets of 25 Cromwell Street.

13 years old.

He's a fucking monster. I hope he wherever he is, I hope he is just living in a cyclic loop of fucking brutal torture. I really do.

That he doesn't enjoy.

Yeah, exactly. No, he didn't. I don't think he enjoyed it, I think he enjoyed inflicting. But this girl's friend sat with the information for a few days before eventually going to her mother, who in turn informed a local police officer.

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Now, the tip about the Wests prompted an investigation, which was led by veteran Detective Hazel Savage. Which is such a cool name.

Love it.

This investigator, this detective, had experience working sex crimes and crimes involving children, so perfect person to get involved in this. At first, the case seemed a little straightforward. You know, a single incident of sexual assault, a horrific crime, but one that they could easily just go forward with.

Yeah, for real.

While they were there, one of the children told one of the social workers that their father often threatened them with violence. Saying, If you ever talked about what went on in the house. They would be killed and buried under the patio, just like their sister Heather. So he would literally say that to his children, like, I'll fucking kill you and bury you under the patio, like Heather.

Oh my God, these poor kids, I can't. Your brain can't even like, put that together of. You will be buried next to your sister, my daughter, whom I killed.

And also to me, that puts a lot more weight on the idea that Heather might have said, I'm going to, I'm leaving, I'm telling. Or they had some weird idea that she was going to that response, and that's why she was killed.

Absolutely, I agree with you.

Now, Fred would later claim that was just a joke.

Meanwhile, fucking Rose herself is interested in women too, so like, What is your fucking problem here?

That's what it is, it's all this fucked up loop of being, of hating themselves.

Yeah.

And taking that hate out on other people.

Yeah.

And it's like, totally putting it out on other people.

It's just making me so mad that they're like, they're putting that on her afterwards and acting like it's a bad thing. When Rose very much came on to other women, yeah.

Like in.

So like, such an aggressive manner, yeah, and like, I'm just like, and now you're saying like, Oh, I didn't report her missing because she was a lesbian. Well, and that's....

And it's literally a mother saying I didn't report my child missing because she was a lesbian. Yeah, oh, I'm sorry. Do you think that makes you look better, right?

Like, fuck you rose. And and sitting there, saying, Oh, both of them, yeah, sitting there, saying that, knowing full well what happened to her for her whole life.

Yeah, like, knowing what you did.

Yeah, you wake up every single morning over your daughter's dead body. Yes, like you fucking pig. a true pig.

Like true fucking hogs.

Pig.

Just.

Blech, It's so filthy.

It is, that's the thing, it just gets worse and worse now. Throughout the rest of 1992 and most of 1993, investigators continued building their case against Fred. And eventually, he was charged with three counts of rape of a minor, with Rose being charged as an accomplice. But they remained free on bail pending the trial.

A rapist?

A child rapist.

A child rapist on three fucking counts. Where are they?

Yeah, like, what's happening?

What fucking county is this?

Now, in the meantime, the Department of Social Services continued their search for Heather West, interviewing the children as they went for more information. And the process was very slow going, and at first it was yielding very little information, but eventually they had gathered enough testimony from the children. Because that's also a delicate process, it's a slow process.

You have to go about it in the right way.

You're asking them to personally give you a testimony and a narrative of what they've gone through. That's a lot even for grown-ass adults to do. Yeah, like, that's a lot.

And you're doing it while their life has just been like.

Outbended in so many ways.

Yeah, exactly.

But they had eventually gathered enough testimony from the children, as well as other witnesses, and they strongly suspected that there was vital evidence of murder in the house on Cromwell Street, Yeah, so. In late February 1994, Hazel Savage applied for a warrant that would allow investigators to search the West House and Garden for evidence of Heather West. And the application was granted.

Hazel Savage Forever.

Hazel fucking savage. Now, with the search warrant secured, it seemed only a matter of digging in the yard, but investigators had no idea where to look. And the process was further complicated by all the alterations that Fred had made to the house and the extensive stonework in the backyard. Eee.

They've been abused their whole lives and brainwashed, and every horrible thing.

They're doing what they've been taught to do. Yeah, like, you know, like, absolutely.

Right, and they probably did not believe for a second any of these claims.

And they're terrified. mm-hmm. They've been scared since they came into the world, mm-hmm. They've lived nothing but fear and horror and sadness and loneliness and isolation and pain, and just any horrible thing you can think of. They've lived it their entire lives.

They're like, we have a fucking warrant.

Yeah, they're like, Fuck you, we're digging a bottle back here. And they began with a hole dug in the back corner and they were going to just slowly move forward. The work was very slow, but they were very methodical about it. And it was kept getting stalled and interrupted and fucked up by Fred and Rose. Because they kept interfering and arguing with investigators whenever they could, like, they just kept trying to fuck it up.

I was like, Okay, cool, why don't you go sit in jail then? Yeah, and await your fucking sentencing for your fucking thing that you're on bail for right now?

Because you're interfering with an investigation, yeah, I'd be like, all right, cool, you should be arrested.

Go sit in a fucking jail cell.

But after a few days, it did seem to have dawned on Fred that he wasn't going to be able to stop this search. And that they were going to discover a lot. And he was like, they're also going to move into the house, they have a warrant for the house as well, so they're going into that basement and they're going to find that. So, given that, it probably seemed no use in keeping up the charade.

I mean, they were going to.

As they led Fred from the house now, he walked up to Hazel Savage and said, You might as well bring me in because you're going to find shit. And she was like, awesome.

Okay.

So they led him from the house to the police car, and he made a large public spectacle. Protesting, screaming and being like, I didn't kill her. Like acting like he didn't just walk up to somebody and say, you might as well bring me in, because there's going to be a ton of stuff here.

And acting like it's not going to come out very soon. When they're done with this whole excavation process that there are however many, numerous bodies outside, and then when they move inside, however many bodies are inside.

That the basement is literally filled.

The point that you ran out of room, like, I don't really know what you're doing here. Because all of this is coming to light within weeks.

Well, also, they got him in the car, closed the door.

And he shut right up.

And he immediately confessed to murdering Heather.

Yeah, so there you go.

So he all the way to the car. I didn't kill her.

How dare you?

I didn't kill her, gets in the car and he's like, I did, I killed her.

Can you imagine being involved in that?

And then he literally looked at Savage and he said, Detective Savage, you're digging in the wrong place.

What a pompous asshole.

Like, what a fucking asshole, and also like, What the fuck is wrong with you now? It's possible that Fred thought he could prevent the discovery of the other bodies if he confessed to the murder of Heather and pointed detectives away from the other graves, he thought, maybe they'll stop after they get Heather.

Yeah, totally.

But by then, the stories had changed so many times, and there was so much circumstantial evidence. That Detective Savage and the others definitely thought that Fred wasn't telling the whole truth. So they were not going to stop at that. And at this point, they have no idea what's in store for them. They are looking for Heather, so that's why he thought they'll stop after that.

Meanwhile, it's like, Dude, what if they don't even find Heather first and they find someone else?

Well, he was trying to lead them right to Heather so that they would stop.

Like, how do you even remember?

Now, whatever Fred's motive, his plan didn't work. Investigators continue digging in the backyard. Obviously, because if you can kill your own child, you are capable of a lot, you fucking idiot.

Obviously also imagine living next door to this and being like, Oh my God, that was there the entire time. How many? 12 bodies? 13 bodies?

As he walked out and stood on top of his child.

Literally in the ground and countless other bodies.

And dismembered. All these people, too, like their neighbors, are probably sitting there, being like, in that house at night. Sometimes when a light was on, they were sawing apart a body, sometimes their own child.

Right?

And I was just going to sleep.

It would be so hard to stay like your house isn't even where the horrors happened. I feel like I would have such a hard time staying in my own house after that.

I would have trouble staying in that neighborhood, I would have trouble. And I think there was a lot of people that had a lot of. That was a big source of just really bad vibes and really bad stuff. Oh yeah, like after this.

It's so dark, dark isn't even the word for it.

Because it's not just murder, it's sexual assault, it's rape, it's child abuse, it's child sexual assault.

And just the energy surrounding the entire place must have just been abysmal.

Yeah, but the investigators kept digging up the backyard. And within a week, they discovered not one but two sets of remains in the West's backyard. And a day later, a third was discovered and the third set of remains were identified as Heather West.

So they didn't even find Heather first.

They didn't even find her first now. On February 27, 1994, Fred and Rose West were arrested for murder. When the discovery in the garden was announced to the press, the Police and Missing Persons Bureau was flooded with calls from around the country, all with people with loved ones who'd gone missing. And they were like, potentially are they in that backyard?

Oh my God, do I have to make that call? Is my loved one in that garden? yeah.

I can't even think of it.

How do you?

Bureau director Christopher Dre told the press We have been inundated with calls, We have 19 lines and during yesterday they were engaged constantly. As the search kept going, local residents watched in absolute horror these neighbors as one body after another was taken from this home. They just watched being like, What the fuck?

And they're probably just desperate to think to themselves and they want to believe she's alive. Like I would never have been in this house if I knew she was back there.

If I knew that they killed my sister, like. But as the days went on, it was getting harder to defend Fred and Rose. And by the end of the first week of March, the ninth body had been removed from the West House and investigators. And this was within only a couple of weeks, and investigators expected to find more in the basement.

So that was just the backyard, nine bodies in the yard.

By that point, Fred had been formally charged with the murder of Heather and the murder of former lodger Shirley Ann Robinson. But detectives fully expected that there were going to be way more charges to come. The growing number of bodies and the very slow identification process led to a great deal of speculation, especially around the disappearance of Mary Bastholm many years earlier, Mary's brother Peter said. And this is so sad, he said. Quote In some ways. It would be a relief if police identify her as it would stop the wondering and we would be able to hold a funeral for her.

Like, that's so awful.

By mid-march, all the bodies had been removed from the house, but there was still a lot of work to be done to identify all of them. In the meantime, Fred must've realized that things were looking pretty bad because he started speaking to investigators. Wow, mistakenly believing that he could explain away the 12 dead bodies discovered in his house. But Fred's statements would eventually prove pretty useful in the identification process.

Yeah.

But when somebody is trying to detect one and looking for it.

He's a trained investigator.

He's pretty bad at it, so his interviews were really vague. They were sometimes confusing, very frustrating interviews.

He's also not dealing with younger people exactly.

Younger people who have already been through things and are vulnerable, right? will, will believe a lot more because they've been through a lot more. These are seasoned, investigative adults now. By the end of March, Fred had been charged with nine murders.

Yeah, like she was trying to make herself wet, yeah.

The extended family and all the children were like, Ah, no.

She was both of them.

Rose was a very willing participant in the violence.

And sometimes she was the one that initiated it.

Yeah, she was just as bad. Now. Sensing that she was soon going to be under investigation herself, Rose turned on Fred.

Wow.

Which tells you exactly who she is. Wow, and started giving investigators any information that they asked for and hope that she might be spared.

This really is so akin to Myra.

It really is immediately turn.

Like, wow.

Which you're like, cause you're not fucking human, you don't have human emotions, you don't love each other. That's not what that is.

You don't know what love is.

You're out for number one. And Rose's betrayal created further fractures in the family. As Stephen responded, the son, Stephen, responded to her betrayal. By going to a reporter from the News of the World and giving an exclusive interview about what he experienced and what he saw.

Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Sachi Cole and I'm Sarah Hagee, and we're the host of Scam Influencers. A weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time. The impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away?

On June 30th, Fred and Rose West appeared before a judge in Gloucester Magistrates Court, Um, the first time they'd seen each other since Fred's arrest in February. They were jointly charged with nine counts of first degree murder, among other.

Things. Why only nine if they found more bodies?

I think they were still trying to identify people, okay? They were jointly charged with nine counts of first degree murder, among various other things, and Fred was charged with the additional murders of Rina and Charmaine. Oh, okay.

Well, actually, Rose killed Charmaine, right?

That's what we think. But but he ended up, I think he ended up, I mean.

Not that I'm like, Oh no, I'm just like, wait a second.

I think it was just going off of evidence. But um, as the. And also remember, he was the one who disposed of Charmaine's body and dismembered her. Yes, so there was that, I don't know what.

Like, what are you even thinking at that point?

Yeah, now it was. It hit him, I mean, he knew right. There's no getting out of it. I'm going to get the worst.

Own shirt? That makes me so angry that motherfucker should have been on 24 seven surveillance before he got to do.

Anything, well, so. Medical personnel tried for 30 minutes to revive him, but their efforts were useless. He was dead. But Fred had been on suicide watch since the hearing in July. But in December, those restrictions had been lifted.

And then the second, he got off.

The second it was lifted, in fact, the asshole seemed to be in high spirits. The night before his death, he played pool, he was celebrating the New year with the other inmates celebrating his last.

Fucking day on earth.

One of the guards told reporters he seemed completely normal. It was just like any other day. Wow, now this is. This is the only thing that's good, I guess, is that. The news of Fred's death was met with resounding cheers from nearly everyone who'd been affected by his murder.

So that is good.

So as long as they're looking at us, that's good enough for me. Alison Chamber's mother, Joan Owen, said This is the best news I've heard for a long time. After all the evil things he did, that's supposed to be the only good thing he ever did. Anyone who can do what he did and then walk around and act as if nothing happened is truly evil. Absolutely.

Here Chin.

Here, here, now. Although Fred suicide meant that he was not going to be legally held accountable for the crimes he committed. Nearly everyone seemed to take the news well, including those who worked in the justice system, to be honest.

And if you think about it, it's like he's able to sit there in fucking jail and play pool and shoot the shit with other inmates. Like he shouldn't have that ability. Now he can rot in, hell, yeah.

Rot in hell now. The massive investigation had taken a huge financial toll on Gloss. I always say this wrong, and I apologize, I'm going to try to say it right. Gloucestershire.

Yeah, honestly, everybody involved seems fine with it.

So that's all I'll take.

At first I was like, come on.

And that's, and that's honestly, I see why you said that, because there is a part of it that you're like, fuck.

He didn't face the music.

Well, and also, his death presented a big problem for the Crown Prosecution Service. They were intending to prosecute Rose, with Fred unable to corroborate any of the statements he'd made regarding her participation in the murders. There was they weren't admissible in court anymore, his statements, and they would have to rely on Rose's statements alone. Oh, that's not good.

That's a real one right there.

He said whilst financed must always be a consideration. With any investigation or inquiry, it is always secondary to the result of any of the inquiries we have undertaken. Yeah, we are totally committed to the care of the victim's families with this case.

That's incredible.

Now, Rose's trial began October 3rd, 1995, at Winchester Crown Court in Hampshire, before Justice Charles Mantel. I like Justice Charles Mantel.

You have to wonder where that other justice was that, like, threw out the first sexual assault case, I'm like.

Where are you? Where are you? Cause, let's smack him in the face a little bit.

But I'm glad we have a justice now that we like here.

He's good now. Arguing for the crown was prosecutor Brian Levison, while Rose's defense team was led by Richard Ferguson. In the months leading up to the trial, the defense made a lot of attempts to get it thrown out completely. Wow.

Mama's not innocent, though.

I personally don't, I could never.

Mama's not an incident, I'm sorry, but y'all don't believe that.

But they were trying to get it thrown out on the logical idea that, given the intense and lurid press coverage since the arrest, there was no way that Rose was going to get a fair trial. Well, but the judge said, Hmm, disagree, and the case was allowed to proceed, which I love that the judge was like, huh?

Maybe don't be involved in murdering that many people and you'll find a fair trial. Oh, you won't actually have to have a trial.

Yeah, cause you saw that now. In his opening statement to the jury, Justice Mantell reminded them that they were expected to leave behind all preconceptions, prejudice and sentiment they had that they had about the defendant and based their decisions entirely on the case as it was presented in court.

So he did his due diligence.

He says Enter upon your very heavy responsibility in a clear cut way, unaffected by anything. You may have read about this case, which certainly has its sensational aspects.

You imagine sitting on this jury?

No, with his statement out of the way, the clerk read the charges against Rose. And the most significant of which, those um of those charges, were the 10 counts of first degree murder. For the deaths of shut cause, she was eventually charged with Charmaine Good, Charmaine West, Linda Goff, Carol Cooper, Lucy Partington, Therese Seigenthaler, Shirley Hubbard, Juanita Mott, Shirley Ann Robinson, Alison Chambers and Heather West.

And it paints the picture of, like, look at this fucking monster sitting before you.

She treated them as objects.

And she very much did. I mean the fact that they covered their faces the way they did.

And she was part of everything. Yeah, one after another. The expert witnesses told the evidence collected in the West Home this included several homemade torture devices. Are you kidding me?

Oh my god.

They're the worst, you can't think of something worse than them, no?

It is every gross, horrific, nasty thing that exists.

They were in it.

That was their thing.

Also, forensic experts and several pathologists were called to the stand. All of them did their best to explain the evidence discovered on the bodies. Exhumed from the graves at both the West Homes and the field where Ann McFall and Rena West were buried. Now, arguing in Rose's defense, Richard Ferguson claims Rose was innocent and was as much a victim of Fred as anyone else.

Please.

He said he abused her as he abused everyone else in his evil life, and he said it is because of him that she is before the court.

No.

It's not testifying in her own defense.

Girl bye.