#1976 - James Fox

The Joe Rogan Experience.

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Oh, hello, Chase.

Hello.

Good to see you, my man.

Thank you so much for having me on.

Oh, my pleasure.

The moment I saw that documentary, I was like, wow.

Let me just be honest, off the bat.

I loved your first documentary, but when someone says there's a documentary about a crashed UFO and it happened in Brazil,

I'm always like, man, people tell stories, you know?

I'm like, maybe it was one of those.

Like, I didn't think too much of it.

When I hear stories, even Roswell, I always go, man, I don't know.

I don't know.

It's so hard to know.

1947, you know, I think some shenanigans were going on, but what was it really?

And how much of this is just people tell stories?

And those stories grow and change over the years and, you know, almost like the story becomes their real memory after a while.

Because they've been doing it for, you know, so many, so many years.

But then this one, this one, just right away, the way you captured all the information and the evidence and the eyewitness accounts, the photographs that people got, the depictions of the actual being, the fact that there was live beings.

This is a – and everyone that didn't even know each other having these, like, really similar stories about what they saw and when people got a hold of the wreckage.

Like, when you first started making this documentary, did you have any apprehension?

Like, oh, this one – how do I sell a documentary on a crashed UFO?

Like, what's the best way to put this together?

Because that's part of the art of what you do, right?

You were skeptical?

Let me tell you how skeptical I was.

Okay.

So I was making my second documentary on UFOs in the late 90s.

I just finished a documentary called UFOs, 50 Years of Denial.

I started on my second film.

It was 1999.

And I partnered up with a couple of guys.

Boris Zuboff has been a partner.

I'm still working with him today.

And this guy, Tim Coleman, who's a British reporter.

And we, like, mapping out the film concept.

Like, hey, we should cover this case.

We should do that.

And he's like, hey, mate, we've got to do this amazing UFO crash in Brazil with these aliens.

We're walking around the town.

And I looked at the guy, and I thought, I think I picked the wrong partner.

This guy's fucking batshit crazy.

And literally, I dismissed it on the spot.

And I refused to even read one word about it.

I said, there's no way in hell that that happened and the whole world doesn't know about it.

Right.

So I have to remind your audience, I was making my second documentary.

On UFOs.

On UFOs.

And I dismissed it.

Like this, like, how fast can you say howdy doody?

It just always seems like if someone's telling you about something like that, like, you would have heard about it.

Absolutely.

I can't tell you, Joe, how quickly I dismissed it.

And I didn't look into it until 2011.

Okay, so here's what happened.

I get invited by this guy, A.J. Javard, to a place called Peruíbe in Brazil.

And I'm speaking at a conference about a film I did called I Know What I Saw.

And this guy calls me, Jeff Sagansky.

He was very high up on the food chain in the entertainment industry.

He's been kind of like my mentor and opening doors for me over the years.

And I've asked him over a period of time, like, why are you so kind to me?

He's a very wealthy guy in New York.

And he goes, you know, Jackie Gleason told me one time that these things were real.

Don't listen to anybody else.

I know for a fact.

And so when I saw you as an independent, struggling, young filmmaker, I always wanted to lend a helping hand.

And by the way, you're going to Brazil.

You've got to look into that Varginha case.

And I thought, oh, God, not this again.

Right?

Swear to God.

So I was like, well, I had a lot of respect for Jeff Sagansky.

I mean, you can look him up.

The guy's very famous.

I mean, very.

He's big time.

And I said, oh, yeah, sure, Jeff.

I'll look into that for you while I'm in Brazil.

And just to be nice.

Right.

But in the back of my mind, I was like, I'm not wasting one second on that stupid case.

Seriously.

I'm telling you honest to God truth.

And it was 2011.

So I go to Brazil with no intention of looking into it.

Zero.

OK.

I wasn't even going to ask one question.

And it just so happens that nuclear physicist and UFO researcher Stanton Friedman, rest in peace.

And he's there at the conference.

And somehow the case gets brought up.

Wasn't about that case, but it gets brought up.

And he's like, oh, yeah, I was in Brazil when that went down.

And he's one of the smarter guys.

Stanton Friedman.

Yeah.

He is not an idiot.

I mean, he's one of the reasons why him and Don Schmidt and Kevin Randall, one of the reasons why we're even talking about Roswell.

And he's like, oh, yeah, I was here when that happened.

I met some of the witnesses.

So then that kind of piqued my interest.

I was like, oh, OK.

Well, God Stanton, I can't completely dismiss coming from Stanton.

Then I met a couple of people at the conference.

So I thought, OK, well, I piqued my interest.

I got to be honest with you.

And that's how it all started.

And that was like in 2011.

And I was going to include a segment of it in the phenomenon.

The interview with Stanton, did you get that?

I got that in 2013 in Brazil.

Because he died when?

He died like a couple of years ago.

He died in the airport.

You know what he told me?

He's like, James, I'm retiring.

I can't do this anymore.

I live in Canada in this remote spot.

There are no direct flights.

And I'm always running in the airports trying to get my connecting flight.

And I just can't do it anymore.

And then he retired for like a year or so.

He died in the airport running for a connecting flight.

Oh, he had a heart attack?

He had a heart attack.

Oh, no.

That's exactly what he predicted.

God damn it.

I know, right?

And I just like.

He was a fascinating guy because he was an outspoken critic of Lazar.

And I always wanted to get the two of them together.

I was like, I wanted to see.

Because one of the things that the critics of Lazar always bring up is his education at MIT.

I can explain that to you off air in the way that he explained it to me.

And it might make sense.

But I think that it's hard to dismiss that he worked at that lab.

Los Alamos Labs had him on their list of people that worked there.

Like he was on the whatever that thing is that they have with all the list of employees.

He was in it.

He worked there.

He knew all the people that worked there.

He knew how it was set up.

When they took him there, he knew the security guys.

He knew the machines that they used.

They had some sort of a scanner that measured the length of your digits.

Exactly.

So you put your hand on this thing.

And he talked about it.

And everyone was like, what?

That doesn't even exist.

And then years later, people got photographs of this thing.

George Knapp said he went through that Los Alamos laboratory like just right through.

Let me tell you.

This is something that just came in yesterday that I can for the first time ever talk about in full detail.

I've talked about it.

I did a couple of podcasts where I gave.

I don't know.

In 1993, 1994, I was working on my first film.

I talked about it earlier.

It's called UFOs.

It's so 90s.

But whatever.

UFOs, 50 years of denial.

It's like 80 years of denial now.

And I was interviewing this guy out at Area 50.

He lived on the outskirts of the base in a place near the Little Ailey Inn in Rachel, Nevada.

And this guy's name is Chuck Clark.

And he had found all these.

And the relevance of what I'm telling you will come to light in a second here.

He'd found all these vantage points on the mountaintops that he could spy on the base down below with high-powered telescopes with cameras.

And he was taking photographs of exotic airplanes coming out of hangars and stuff like that.

He wrote a book called like UFO Area 51 Handbook and Guide or something.

He was an amateur astronomer.

And he had a couple of really cool sightings out at Area 51 that were really like he saw these.

It's in my movie.

He saw these lights doing things that they shouldn't be doing, right?

Like traversing and then stopping and then taking off really fast.

So anyway, so I'm covering his story because I was intrigued.

I mean, in the early 90s, the Bob Lazar thing was everywhere.

I was making a doc on UFOs, so I was kind of looking into it.

I wouldn't just like categorically believe it, but I'll look into it.

So I was looking into it.

And I'm going back and forth out there for many times.

And then one day, I get a phone call from Chuck Clark.

And I'm back at home in Northern California.

And it's kind of a long way away.

And he goes, James, I got something you need to see.

I said, okay, well, what is it?

I can't tell you.

But your jaw is going to hit the floor when you see it.

I was like, that good?

He goes, oh, yeah, that good.

I said, I'm canceling all my plans, jumped in my car, and I drove straight through to Rachel, Nevada.

I get to his house.

This must have been, I'm going to guess to me, 95, 94, 95.

I get to his house, and he's got a double wide right near the Little Alien.

And he pops in this VHS tape.

And it was like two guys on the quintessential road trip just to Area 51.

You know, the surrounding areas, Rachel and the extraterrestrial Lonely Highway.

And they're goofing off the alien, taking videos of each other, just the typical road trip out to Area 51, right?

Blair Witch Project.

Totally.

And then they're goofing off next to the photographs of the alien in the crash disk.

And then they're inside the Little Alien.

And I'm like, okay, where is this going?

And all of a sudden, and I saw this with my own eyes.

All of a sudden, the car is parked.

And it's parked out by the black mailbox in the desert.

And it's dusk.

The camera is on the armrest between the two seats.

And it's slightly cocked, like it's not level.

And it's filming the dashboard and the screen, the windscreen, windshield.

And there's two guys in there sounding like, you can't see them, sounding like they're trying to crawl under the seats.

I mean, they're freaking out.

And then one of them goes, it's over the top of us.

It's over the top of us.

I'm like, damn, what is this video?

What am I, you know?

And all of a sudden, the car lights up on the inside.

But the source of light is above it.

Like, if you can imagine, I've never seen anything like this.

If you could put a pendulum with a light source above a vehicle, like above the car, like this, but very slow and fluid motion, like rocking back and forth.

The shadows and the lights on the inside of the car are doing this really eerily.

You've never seen anything like it.

I'm looking like, my God, what is going on?

And they're very scared.

And one kid, who's the younger of the two, is like, I'm getting out.

I'm getting out of the car.

I'm staying in the car.

It's over the top.

I'm staying in the fucking car.

He goes, no, I'm getting out.

And he gets out.

And he videotapes a disc that was so low, you could have hit it with a rock.

And I'm looking at this thing.

And I'm like, that's what all the witnesses have tried to describe.

That's like, if you could imagine the skin on the craft glowing like phosphorus on a beach, that's what it looked like.

Like the skin was alive.

And it had like a yellowy orange color to it.

But you could clearly see it was a disc.

I mean, it was not an orb.

It was a disc.

But the metal lit up like it was alive.

I'd never seen anything like it.

And it just wobbled like it was unstable, like doing this.

And the camera guy goes, oh, my God.

And then something about the batteries and then, boom, it shuts off.

I looked over at Chuck Clark.

I said, this is the video everyone's been waiting for.

Unbelievable.

How do you know this is real?

Because if it's not real.

All my BS meters are going off right now.

Dude, fair enough.

I get it.

Fair enough.

I saw this video with my own eyes.

Of course.

It's a video, though.

It's a video, for sure.

No question about it.

And you know they make fake videos.

Absolutely.

It was 1995 and they could have.

But why wouldn't.

1995 is harder.

Yeah, but why?

It's never been released to the public.

Why would you create a fake video?

What year did you see it?

I saw it like 95.

And so it's out there somewhere.

No, it's not.

Chuck Clark's got a copy of it.

The story continues.

No, but I mean, someone has it.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, absolutely.

I mean, in fact, if those two boys that shot it are out there, please come forward.

Like, please.

How come no one's acquired this?

So I said to Chuck, oh my God, this is great.

I can use this in my movie.

Right?

Great.

He goes, oh, no.

No, no, they're terrified.

I said, well, look, just put me in touch with the guys.

You don't have to, like, give.

But wait a minute.

They're terrified, but they give it to a guy who lives in a trailer?

Hey, I'm just telling you.

Do you know what I'm saying, though?

Absolutely.

Hey, I'm really terrified.

I don't want this getting out, but I'm going to give it to you.

I get it.

A guy who lives in a trailer.

I get it.

What does this guy do for a living?

He was a former military guy, and he's retired.

But just a retired military guy.

Sit with me for a minute here.

This guy's a fed.

He doesn't even live there.

He probably put on some fucking overalls to hang out with you.

Okay, so the story gets better.

Is his name Ray Epps?

I know, Joe.

Believe me, I get it.

But the story gets better.

Sit tight.

Okay.

Because I went on a couple of podcasts, and I said, screw it.

I don't care anymore.

I saw this video.

I'm going to start talking about it.

Chuck Clark said, if you ask me again after, like, 10 years or 12 years, I'm never talking to you again.

So I was like, I, of course, asked him again.

I said, I'll give you 30 grand for the video, and he's not talking to me.

So I went on, like, a concrete podcast, and I went on this guy Julian Dorian's podcast,

and I went on a bunch of other podcasts, and I gave the whole story.

Let's let somebody else pick up the ball and run with it.

I'm just telling you what I saw, okay?

I get contacted a couple years ago by a guy.

He goes, I saw that video, too.

Then another guy contacts me, and he goes, I'm a private investigator.

I find people.

I said, well, his name's Chuck Clark.

Go to it.

So he finds him.

Right at that time, I'm going on the Impulsive podcast with Logan Paul, and I tell Logan Paul the story.

He has exactly the same response you have, and I don't blame you.

Okay?

I'm not here to convince anybody of anything.

I'm just telling you what I saw.

It was very impressive, what I saw.

Very impressive.

If it was a fake, my God, that was well done.

I mean, you should be making movies with Spielberg.

So anyway.

What is this channel's name who has this again?

Chuck Clark.

Chuck.

What are you doing, Chuck?

Well, let me finish.

So Logan Paul, he's like, I want to go to this guy's house.

I said, I got the guy.

He's got the information.

Logan's like, this is all behind the scenes.

So Logan Paul takes, I put him in touch with this guy, and this guy lives in the middle of nowhere.

I mean, it was like Logan Paul takes a Mercedes with a bunch of guys and $100,000 in cash, a big brick.

And he goes out to this guy's house in the middle of the desert.

And Logan calls me in the middle of nowhere.

He's like, you sure your contact's legit, dude?

My phone doesn't work.

I'm in the middle of nowhere.

I got 100K cash in my pocket.

I can't find this guy.

I said, no, I'm sure he's good, you know.

And so Logan goes in there and meets Chuck Clark.

And Chuck Clark's like, yeah, I got the tape right here.

And so he says, I'll give you 100 grand for it.

And the guy says, no way.

And so Logan Paul was going to reveal this for the first time.

Logan Paul has got a button camera on his dress, on his clothes.

So Logan Paul's like, all right, well, this guy doesn't want to, you know, he's going to die with it.

So let's get, you know, let's get this thing on camera.

So Logan's like, well, let me see it at least.

So Logan like looks at it with this thing and, oh, could you show it to me again?

Gets another angle, gets another angle.

And then he leaves.

So Logan's like, I don't know if I want to go public.

I mean, I don't really own the video.

I don't know.

It seems like a bit of a gray zone.

So I said, look, you know, this is a story that might be of interest to Bob Lazar.

Because maybe Bob Lazar should see this video and he could make a determination.

I'm just saying.

Or maybe George Knapp or Jeremy Corbell might be interested.

This is not my domain.

I'm not a Bob Lazar big guy.

I don't know enough about Bob Lazar.

I met Bob Lazar in the early 90s.

And he told me, I came up to him at a conference and I said, hey, thank you for coming forward.

And he said, I didn't have a choice.

That was my only, I don't know anything about the case.

I know, you know, way more than I do about the case.

But I'm just saying, I'm just putting this out there.

How do I know more about the case than you?

Well, I do.

You literally make documentaries on UFOs.

I do, but I, I mean, you got one person's account.

And it's fascinating.

And I believe that Lazar believes what he's saying.

But I've talked to George Knapp about this.

And George said the same thing.

I said, maybe, I mean, just maybe.

And I'm not out here attacking Lazar or nobody else.

I'm just saying, maybe he was used as a disinformation plant that seeds some real information and some bogus information.

Just to kind of test the waters and the reaction of the public.

I don't know.

Most certainly that's possible.

Yeah.

Most certainly that's possible.

It's not my domain.

It's also, I would imagine, if you're going to give people access to classified information like that, you'd be very careful.

And you would probably add in some stuff that's not true.

Yes.

So it doesn't matter whether or not, as long as like they have a bunch of stuff that's absolutely provable nonsense.

Yes.

On top of the stuff that's probably real.

Then they get discredited.

Yes.

Which, you know, I mean, look, there's a lot of weird stuff about the Bob Lazar story.

A lot of weird stuff about it.

And the one that sticks in my mind, and I know this probably shouldn't because it's possible to do, is that it's been consistent.

And his story's been absolutely consistent since the late 1980s.

Now, that's possible to develop a narrative.

And if you're disciplined, he's obviously very intelligent.

You could just like craft the longest con the world has ever known and make no money from it and turn your life upside down.

And have the feds search your property, which they did.

Doesn't make a lot of sense.

It doesn't make a lot of sense.

If they thought that he really was in possession of element 115 and that there really is a stable version of this element that we discovered in a particle collider.

Or we accurately, they predicted it and then proved it to be real in a particle collider.

But that wasn't until like the 2000s.

I want to say, was it like 2011 when they officially discovered particle 115 or element 115?

But this element, he said, was stable wherever these beings are from.

And they use it to propel their craft through a means of bypassing normal propulsion systems with some insanely sophisticated method.

Where they can pick points in space and they essentially just instantaneously traverse these points in space.

I brought a photograph with me.

Of course, I left it in the other room, but I'll bring it out at some point.

And it was a guy named James Kibble.

He's Australian.

And it's about 19, it's April 1966.

And the reason why I'm bringing this up is because I did a segment on a landing case that happened at Westall in 1966.

Which is a suburb, Westall Primary School, which is a suburb of Melbourne.

Shane Ryan did a film on it.

I just covered a section of it in The Phenomenon.

And during my time in Australia, I'd heard about this guy, James Kibble, that shot a polaroid of a disc a couple of kilometers away two days prior to the landing at the school.

A lot of times when you have sightings, mass sightings like that, they're in and around the area for several days.

So it's very likely that those two are connected.

My point is this.

According to James Kibble, when he's in the film, he said the disc was kind of coming down like this over his garden.

And he had his polaroid camera he was going to take pictures of.

Were you doing the same wobbling kind of motion with your hand?

Yeah, I'm just telling you what he told me.

He said it was kind of wobbling down like a leaf, kind of.

And then he was like, holy shit.

And he grabbed his polaroid camera.

And he said he did it so quickly, he smashed it in his face and he split his nose open.

But he snapped one shot.

And he said what it did was, is it went like this.

Which turned sideways.

The photograph that I have shows it sideways.

And I'll show it to you.

I scanned it from the original polaroid.

And then it shot off at an unbelievable rate of speed, according to him.

Exactly how Lazar describes how these things work.

That's exactly my point.

And when I interviewed all the children, now adults, that watched this thing land at this Westall Primary School in 1966, they said the same thing.

It was sitting on the ground.

They got up to, I think, around 10 feet away from it, which is pretty remarkable.

When you talk to witnesses, especially that many witnesses, I mean there were roughly 300 kids.

I didn't meet all 300 of them in the playground when this happened.

And including the science teacher, this guy Greenwood, which I got him on camera for the first time in history and the phenomenon.

And they said it got off the ground and then it went like this.

It turned like this.

Turned sideways again.

And then it shot off at a high rate of speed.

It's in the movie.

You can hear all the testimonies.

It's the same thing.

Yes.

And I got a photograph of it like this.

I'll show it to you.

And no sound.

And no sound.

A slight humming or buzzing sound.

This is 1966.

So, and I'm going to get to this later.

We can go back to moment of contact.

But I'm going to make the argument that some, and I cannot emphasize how many times we need to underline the word some, UFOs, UAP, originate from a non-human intelligence.

And I'll start off in 45 and I'll take us up to modern day.

Just a handful of cases that I am, I have personally investigated.

I have personally met the witnesses, gone to their houses, dating back to 45, 47, 52, 57, 55, 60s, 64, like all these cases, okay?

So, basically what I'm going to do is we all know, we know that the vast majority of these cases can be explained in conventional terms.

All this noise about Chinese balloons and weather balloons and that's all noise.

It's obfuscation and noise.

Yeah, we know that all that stuff exists.

But what about the core 5 or 10% of cases?

And I'm going to give you some samples today.

That truly, after extensive and exhaustive investigation, not because of a lack of data, that defy a conventional explanation, and those are the cases that I'll share with you today when we're ready.

But we can go back to moment of contact if you want.