Why You Have To Be Laser Focused To Win With Money

Please stand by.

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is The Ramsey Show. It's where we help you win in your life. We're going to help you win with your money. We're going to help you win in your work and win in your relationships. All three of those are interconnected, and if you're not winning in one of them, it's going to be affecting the others.

I'm pretty terrible at the brackets because I'm over-committed to my Texas Tech Red Raiders. I over-commit. I appreciate that. And I get delusional. It's your school, man.

Okay. Well, I like that loyalty. So, we'll take your questions. We always have fun together, and we're not afraid to dig deep. So, let's get it started.

Hi. Thank you guys for taking my call.

Sure.

So, we are currently working on baby step number two to get out of debt, and I'm kind of struggling with the idea. I'm a stay-at-home mom, and so I'm very well aware that I came into the marriage with student loan debt and our card debt. And so, I've also been taking on the majority of the consumer debt that we have on our credit cards. And so, I struggle with the idea of feeling guilty, but also feeling like I'm not doing enough to contribute on tackling this debt. So, I mean, I don't know.

All right. So, let's take on that second part. I want Dr. John to jump in on that guilt here in a moment. But let's just look practically at.

I mean, I count on him to be with the kids on the weekends, and so I have taken on some tutoring that I'm doing, and so I'm bringing in maybe like 150 on the weekends.

Okay, great. Okay, so, first of all, we didn't mention that in the opening question. You're actually bringing in some money. So, we could say that on a given month, on a four-weekend month, you're bringing in what, $600?.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, that goes a long way, doesn't it? If I was talking to your husband right now, and I said, hey, man, how's that $600 your wife adding to the pot? How's that feel? What would he say?

He'd say he's grateful, probably.

Probably? Or you know he would.

Yeah, I know he would.

So, let me ask you this. How much time do you have during the traditional Monday through Friday that you could give to work?

So, I mean, we do DoorDash about three hours.

No, no, hold on. You're not answering my question. You're not answering my question. I'm actually trying to help you here on a practical matter. How many hours could you give to making money Monday through Friday?

I would say maybe two or three.

Two or three hours a day?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, great. So, let's just say two hours a day. That's 10 hours a week, and then we've got the weekend stuff. So, what I want you to be focused on, I'm not going to put you on the spot. You don't have to come up with this on the air.

Sarah, what's your total debt load of your house?

We're about $30,000 in debt.

And what's your husband bring home?

He's bringing home around $36,000..

Around $36,000?.

Ooh, I'd like to help him make some more money.

And y'all live in New York?

Yeah.

How many kids do you have?

We have two, a 10-month-old and a 2-year-old.

All right. I want to give you some potentially hard truth, because I love you. Is that cool?

Yeah, of course.

Okay. What you're running into, it sounds like, is what you want versus reality. And what y'all want is you want to be a stay-at-home mom, which I applaud and I love. Okay? I think it's amazing.

I'm not sure they can afford the child care anyway. Do you have family that could step in?

Yeah, forget affording it. Do you have family there?

Yeah, I think—we have talked about this. We have family in Jersey, so I think that is more of what we've been deciding to look into as a family.

What does your husband do?

Jinx.

He's a construction worker.

Okay.

What's he make per hour?

So they get paid on a weekly basis. It's a small company.

Okay, I'm going to tell you something. John and I are up in New York all the time doing media stuff, and I see construction everywhere. And I'm not a huge fan of unions, but I know that he should be, and he could be, making way more than $36,000..

Way more.

He needs some urgency. This is less about you feeling guilty, and he needs to feel some, what I would call, positive pressure from his older buddies, Ken and John. He needs to be doing everything he can. The construction market is—the trades, they're dying for people. And to John's point, if you guys need to move to New Jersey and be near the family, so it's easier for the kiddos to be watching, you both are crushing it.

I don't think you're feeling guilt as much as you're feeling fear. And your fear is founded because y'all can't afford to live in the world you have created for yourselves. So something's got to give. I hope he goes, you know what, I'm going to get a new job, and I'm going to get three jobs, and I'm going to get us out of this mess, number one, and I'm going to find a sustainable way for us to live, number two. Or you're going to decide, I'm going to go to work also, and we're going to rely on family, or we're going to do all three, and we're going to move, right?

Yeah. John Mayer's song, Waiting on the World to Change, is not applicable here. You guys got to stop waiting for something better to happen and make something happen. Like right now, it's urgent. Get after it.

Y-Refi is not licensed by the California Department of Financial Protection and Innovation. Y-Refi is not authorized by the New York State Department of Financial Services to service any New York loans. Funding may not be available in all states.

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman. Dr. John Deloney is with me this hour. We are here for you.

Hey, guys. Thanks for taking my call. You bet. What's up?

Tell me how old you are, and I'd love to know where you are now on that journey. And then what ideas that you've allowed your brain to think about. So it's a three-part question. Hit me with those answers.

Well, I'm 21 right now, so I'm still young.

Okay. So what have you been wondering about lately? Because I know you don't make this phone call without some ideas that have been circling your head.

Yeah.

Let's take that specific thing on, and then I want to pull back for a little bit, because I understand doubt big time. And we're going to go through a real quick exercise, and I think we're going to get you some clarity. So, on the firefighter thing, that you're a small guy, okay, have you actually sat down and had coffee or lunch with a firefighter?

No, I haven't.

All right. I want you to do that. That's your homework assignment. Because I promise you, Dylan, you know somebody that knows somebody that could get you in touch with the local fire department. And I'm telling you, those firemen would be happy to take a young guy out like you and let you kick the tires, find out everything about their job.

I'd like to think people.

Okay.

Probably the biggest one.

People's the biggest one. Okay. Now let's ask you the question. Now, let's forget about talent, what you're good at. You?

Probably ideas. I like to see what I think come to life.

Okay. So we're not going to lock you into anything today, but, Dylan, that's a really good experiment for you to go. Okay. This is who I am. And I'd run that by some people and say, okay, I love ideas.

I'd say something to do with helping people find houses for cheaper.

Very good. All right, John, what are you reading? I want to bring you in here because what we've done here is just classic. Let's just get how he's... We wanted Dylan to be able to identify who Dylan is and so that he can go, because he's got a lot of exploration and Dylan at 21,.

Well, earlier...

There's something behind the landscaping and the firefighting too. So there's some patterns here.

So let me ask you a strange question, Dylan. And I heard this from a guy who has a show, his name's Chris Williamson. Chris asked this question and I was just scrolling through, wasting my life away scrolling, and it caught me, and it's kind of wormholed its way into my head for the last few weeks. Here's what it is. What do you want to want?

I don't know. It's really hard to figure out. I really want to have a lot of freedom in my life.

Yeah. And you want to help people. Yeah. So here's an exercise you cannot answer necessarily on the air, okay? But we've been kind of guiding you through this process.

Ken, if I had to go back and talk to my 21-year-old self, I'd tell him one thing, chill out. Because the job you have when you're in your 40s doesn't even exist yet, because YouTube and podcast did not exist when you and I were 21.. So right.

However, though, these are the right questions he needs to be asking. You don't need to be putting pressure on getting the great answer. What you have to do is use those questions that we just gave you, and begin to trust your heart and follow that till you begin to discover things that you never saw before. This is The Ramsey Show.

This is a paid advertisement. NMLS ID 1591,. NMLSconsumeraccess.org, Equal Housing Lender, 1749 Mallory Lane, Suite 100, Brentwood, Tennessee 37027..

Welcome back to The Ramsey Show, America. Thrilled that you're with us. Dr. John Deloney is with me. I'm Ken Coleman.

Hi. I was, thank you for taking my call. Sure. I appreciate it. You bet.

That's what we teach. So we teach- What was that? That's what we teach, Baby Step 1, 2, 3, and 4.. And we don't start investing 15% until we get the three to six months fully funded. But I think we need to step back a bit and find out why is it that you are having to dip into Baby Step 3,, the emergency fund, from time to time, in order to cover your monthly bills?

I feel like my contributions to my 401k are a bit too high. So they're taking out too much.

So that means that you feel like. that is the sole reason that you are paycheck to paycheck?

No, I believe the biggest reason is I don't have a budget. I haven't for five years since the last time we took the Dave Ramsey Court.

All right. So I'm not beating up on you, Ed, but that's a way to deal with it.

Yeah, you got to have a budget.

We get the budget under control, because you've clearly been able to make some progress. Where's your emergency fund at now? as you rate it between three and six months? You have three months?

I almost have three months. I have $17,400 right now.

Okay. So here's what's interesting, Ed. I want you to be encouraged, but I also want you to have some more urgency, because you've been able to accomplish that despite not having a budget for five years.

Yes. That's impressive, man.

It actually is. And imagine, though, John, how much more effective he could be. I think this is all about budget. And then we're not even worried about the question that you asked. I think it's about budget, because is it safe to assume, Ed, that you have enough money to be contributing the 18% anyway?

I believe if I did a budget, I would. Yeah. I'd have to cut some expenses that I know I don't need, and I think I would. And that has been something I've been adamant about the last couple of weeks, since doing my taxes. All right.

Let's say you did a budget for April, which you need to do. Okay? Let's say you do a zero-based budget. Every dollar is how you do it. It's the greatest tool in the world for it.

I feel it would take me two to three months, at least. All right.

So my point is that you're that close to having six months, right?

Yes.

Well, we say three to six months. So how much more money do you need to make it three months?

Probably another $15,000.. Okay.

All right. So that's going to take you two or three months, but this is all about the budget. What do you think is the biggest drain on your budget right now, if you had to guess? Because I don't think you actually know.

I believe little expenses like streaming services, they add up and maybe not eating out as much. We have cut back on that. And then everything else is just a question mark, but I know there's stuff I'm not considering. Yeah.

Well, here's the way we play the baby steps out. Technically, to the letter of the law, then you would stop. You would stop until you get your house in order, right? Until you complete baby step three. So if you were to pause the 401k investing, starting next month, that would free up a sizable chunk of change for you to allow you to finish baby step three.

Here's why I like that, for Edkin is, Ed, I can tell you have a thing about investing.

Yes, and starting late.

So you, cutting it off, it would force you. So, in behavior change, we want to reduce friction in the behaviors that we want to do more of. We want to make it easier to eat healthy. So we only have healthy foods in our house and we want to put hurdles in front of those behaviors we want to change. It's going to make you mad.

So do I do. I do the match? They match 5%? No.

No. Paul does everything.

Get crazy about getting your family safe. Your family's still not safe. Y'all got out of debt. But one thing that goes sideways. You're an air conditioner or a roof away for having zero money.

Yes.

So we're talking two to three months, Ed, right? Yes. Yeah. So what we're doing is we're doing a forced pause, as John laid out for you beautifully. But that's now.

For a restaurant. Come on, man.

Or you just don't have money for vacation because you haven't been using your money wisely. So, Ed, we're trying to force some change here, but you can fix this pretty quick. And you're not going to fall behind. The two, three months, by the way, whatever gland is freaking out right now, it's going to be okay. You know what I'm saying?

Yes, sir.

All right, buddy. This is about changing the behavior, John. I love what you said there. I think that's a really good point. He's going to be really uncomfortable not seeing his 401k account get deposited.

And his kids is going to ask, hey, dad, can we go to Sonic? And he's going to put a stop to that real quick, man. Because that 5% match, that's somebody else's money. And it's just not going to be going into your account because you didn't do the stuff you need to do ahead of time. Let's get it knocked out.

Yeah, it really is. Wow, wow, wow. Unbelievable. And again, if you're new to us, okay, and you're hearing the Baby Steps 1, just a real quick review. Baby Step 1 is we want you to get $1,000 in a savings account for your kind of run-of-the-mill emergency, right?

Doing well, Ken. How are you yourself?

I'm doing well. I'm having too much fun with the place you live, but you know, you got to say it a little bit more exciting every once in a while.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's a great place.

So how can we help today?

So I'm working on my PhD, and I'm part-time in it right now. It's a 90-hour program at the university, and I'm trying to determine whether or not this is actually worth it. I've been in the program since 2000, and cash flowed the whole degree myself, and I'm feeling like I'm in a rut, and I'm trying to figure out, I'm close to retirement, is this really worth the headache and the stress- What's the program? ... putting on our family?

Now, why did you get into it? Where do you think it was going to take you?

Well, I was expecting to be able to advance into the fire chief role in the local area, but it's not going to happen here. I'll have to go elsewhere and tell you the truth.

Is that an option?

Not really, no.

So, if I'm understanding this right, we pursued this PhD for a very specific role, and that's not an option. That's done. Right, right. How much do you have left?

About 30 hours.

And how long would that take?

Probably another three plus years.

Well, John's answer may be different than mine, so I'm going to go first, because mine's quicker. I am a guy who believes in degrees for one reason and one reason only. It is the only way for me to do the thing that I want to do. Now, let me say as a caveat, if you want to go get a PhD just for your own personal accomplishment, I got no problem with that either.

I mean, this is a rare moment, but I 100% agree with you, Ken. Like Jeremy, you're talking about three years of your life, and that's 30 hours. at part-time. That's six, four, that's being real generous. if you take two classes a term.

Right.

How old are you?

49..

Okay, so.

Hard pass.

Hard pass. I guess, like, my mom, finished her PhD at 53, but she had a very, like a very laser focused career trajectory.

Not at all.

Yeah. No, I think it was a one-shot deal.

I would do it for the leadership purposes.

Okay.

Have you, do you have an opportunity, and a lot of doctoral programs will do this, if you go sit with, sit with the, with your advisor, they will off-ramp you with a master's degree after you've already got 60 hours, because most master's degree programs are 45 to 60 hours. Would they do that for you, or do you already have a master's?

I've got a master's already, but I'm, I'll finish their master's program in December.

I would finish that, and sayonara.

Roger that.

I agree. Now, can I dig a little bit, Jeremy? Yeah. What's going on there in Baton Rouge? with this, you got a lid on you.

Lid meaning-.

Why this is not a-. What's keeping me here? Why this option? Why the chief, the thing that you went after, why it's not an option?

Everyone that they put into the positions are very young, and it will, before they retire, I will be long-retired.

I see. You're 49.. Yeah.

That's young, brother. Yeah.

I'll retire in four years.

And then what are you going to do?

Yeah. That was my follow-up question. What's next?

Because you can't just retire and do nothing.

Consulting was what I was looking at, and the only redeeming factor in this whole PhD program is being able to go into consulting and organizational development.

Great. I think a master's is enough, man. I think somebody who's as sharp as you are, a retired firefighter, you were in some type of a leadership role, correct? Right. Yeah.

You've got two of them. Have you started consulting yet?

No, not especially.

Here's what I would do. To give yourself a peace of mind, you're 60 hours in, you're two-thirds. I think Ken and I are both, I think we're both right. I mean, I've just sat with too many doctoral students over the years that get halfway through, and they're like, what am I doing? Everyone just kept saying, keep going.

Even if it's free, by the way.

Yeah, it sounds like a scam. It sounds like, oh dude, you just get like, there's a great on New Girl once, he's, like, my girlfriend's, running this awesome scam called consulting.

I love that you even know what New Girl is.

I love that show. Yeah. It's very exciting. It's like Blue Oyster, Cult, New Girl. Those are my two favorite things.

Yeah. And Jeremy, I want to ask one more question on this. Sure. Why did you want to be the chief?

I'm asking myself that on a regular basis.

So let me ask you this. I was digging for something. I may have found something I didn't think I was going to find. Did you want to lead because you were told that you would be a good leader, or did you want to lead because you wanted to lead?

I wanted to lead. Okay.

That's what I thought. And I can hear the disappointment. Can we be honest that it's pretty disappointing and pretty hurtful? You feel like- Oh, yeah. Okay.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

So, my friend, this is great. You're going to collect a fireman's retirement pension, or whatever it is. you've got. And I think you've got, a lot of years of leading, and I think you need to give it everything you've got and find a place to lead. There's a lot of transferable leadership, skill and experience that you're bringing to the table.

I recently purchased a car, and I think it's a mistake.

Uh-oh, give us some evidence that makes you think it's a mistake.

Well, it's a Mercedes, it's very luxurious, I feel like the gas is premium.

Well, that's a fact, that's not a feeling. I've got one of those, it's a little extra. How much did the car cost?

$17,000..

$17,000.. All right, and did you take a loan out on it?

I did, because I didn't have a check at the dealership, but I'm going to pay it off as soon as the first bill comes.

So you've got the $17,000 in the bank?

Yes.

Oh, okay, great. So we're off to a decent start here. How much money do you make?

My household is about $160,000..

Well, I've got great news for you, Greg. What? That car's not too expensive for you.

Yeah, what's your hang-up, dude?

What's going on? Not to mention, you actually have the money in the bank, so you've been disciplined enough to save it up. So what's making you think it's too much car?

Well, I don't know, it's just, it's a really nice car.

What year is it?

2013..

Bro! All right, listen.

What model? Hold on.

It's an 11-year-old car.

I know, hold on, I'm going somewhere. What model is it?

It's a C300.. Dude!

I got the 2013 C250.. That's not too much car. It's a great little car.

Did you grow up with? not very much, Greg?

Yeah, we were pretty poor.

Yeah, and when you grow up that way, sometimes you, those people, drive Mercedes, not folks like us.

Yeah.

And then you put those people into a category of bad people.

No, not bad people. I just feel like I don't deserve it.

Okay. Yeah, you got to stop with that nonsense.

Yeah. You know what, Greg? Is it that you don't think you deserve the used 2013 Mercedes? Or is it that you think you're being irresponsible?

Yeah, maybe that's it.

That's what I'm hearing. I don't want to necessarily hang that on you, but you started talking about, oh, it's $17,000..

Well, see, I think he's finding a reason to break up with the car. You know when you're dating somebody in high school and you're like...

Because he thinks he's being irresponsible. That is $17,000 where I come from. That's what I think is going on. Am I right, Greg?

Yeah, something like that, yeah.

Most of the calls we take with people in your situation on this show make $160,000 and they've just bought their third Tesla.

Or a 50 to $75,000 truck. We got that call yesterday. Yes.

Like when it comes to the number, like you, are showing incredible restraint and discipline by buying a $17,000 car.

How many miles it have on it?

77,000..

Yeah, here's what's interesting. I got mine, a steal of a deal, I bought it from a dealership and an old couple had just turned it in. I think I got it with 40,000 miles. So it was practically a brand new car. You remember what I get?

The repair bill's high, huh?

I just put brakes on it. Just a normal maintenance.

They're proud of those brakes?

Everything on the Mercedes they're proud of. So what I would tell you, Greg, is that a part of this purchase, you've got the $17,000 to pay it off. But you do need to understand that, yes, your gas bill is going to be more. Everybody else is excited about gas dipping in the threes, and I'm always like... Because, again, it requires the premium gas.

Yeah.

So you're also looking at the inflation that is always there with any kind of car that requires premium gas. You're also looking at it's a lot more expensive to take care of. However, that car, the reason I got that car is it was a great deal, but it's also going to go to my kids. And if I take care of that, which I am-.

It'll last forever.

And I plan for it, a Mercedes will run forever if you do and you save in a sinking fund. So you need to have a budget item in your budget for that car, so that when you got to pop $1,500 for brakes, you're still going to have some antacid issues, but you've got the money. Does that make sense, Greg? I do want to prepare you for that, because that's something that I have to think about.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Well, can you do that?

Yeah, I can do that.

I know you can. I wanted you to hear you say that you can do that.

Okay.

But I think you need to say, is it okay? John, I still think he's dealing with, he thinks he is just highfalutin, just pissing money away.

Other people drive Mercedes. And I want you to say, whatever you and your household have done, y'all worked your butts off, you're doing good, you're paying cash for cars, you are making six figures, y'all are doing great, man. You may need to lean into this new identity that you have, this new world where I work hard, I get paid, I get rewarded for the hard work I put in, and we're extra generous, and I buy 10-year-old, 11-year-old used cars, but when I do, I get a nice one.

That sounds great.

Or, dude, here's the other thing. I'm not a Mercedes guy. I'm an old beat-up truck guy. Okay. Right?

All right, John, I've got to flip the tables on you here. What about your Texas upbringing, Texas tech pedigree makes you think that you don't deserve more than a beat-up truck?

I actually do. I went to... I don't know if it's a deserve, but I think it's okay. I went to buy...

Of course it's okay.

I saved up, went to buy it to get me a brand new Tundra. I went to the dealership, got it all worked out, and I just couldn't do it. And that's... I came home with a Highlander. Great car.

Why did you do that?

I just wasn't in a place psychologically to do it yet. I will one day. But I just wasn't there yet. All right. See?

I like turning the tables.

I'm not going to fight myself on it, but I do know, oh, this is an achy point for you, John. Because me, growing up, those people drove the new trucks. Yeah.

And that's interesting.

In our house, we didn't do things like that. Yeah. Well, that's for me to work on.

I had the same issue. You know? I was like, what? You're going to pay that much for gas? I think my old man's still freaking out about it when I told him what I have to pay for gas.

He's a mogul.

Oh, that's even bigger than a baron.

I think that's-.

Sounds bigger. We don't know. We'll look it up. James will Google it. But we know that the audience is always asking us all the time.

Hi, thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk to you, too, John. I loved your last book. And, Ken, I need some career advice.

All right, go.

All right, so my question is really about kind of where I go from here. I recently left a relatively lucrative career in order to have more time with the kids. I was traveling a lot, but we are on baby step six and trying to pay off the house.

Awesome.

So interested in getting your advice on if I go and find another job like it, or I have my real estate license, and if I should go back into real estate. I did that a couple years ago, and it also turned out pretty well.

So what was the... You sound like a rock star, first of all. I'm very excited to talk to you. I feel like it might give me some type of glow here, because you're a rock star. So you were successful in real estate, and then you were successful in whatever this lucrative career was that you left.

I was a senior director for a large makeup company, and so I sold wholesale, really, but I was a leader of the sales team.

Gotcha. So you're a sales rock star.

Yes.

Yes. I love that. How much were you making?

I was making $185, plus a 30% bonus.

And how much are you loving this season of stepping away from all that hustle and being at home?

It's a little anxiety producing, not going to lie. I love my kids, but I first week was spring break, and that's a lot.

Okay. So this is why I'm asking here, because you were super successful. You step away, and we're on baby step six, and now you're like, okay, should I go back to work? And it feels like you're looking for permission to say, I don't think I want to be a stay-at-home mom. Am I right or wrong?

You are right.

Okay. So A, you don't need our permission, and John, you're chomping at it. Yes.

I did it either way without your permission, so I definitely jumped in head first.

Here's my one. ... I always want to be careful when I'm talking to women making this shift, because I know that there's the Western guilt factory that no matter what decision you make, it's the wrong one. That's right. Correct.

I think ... Well, so my youngest is going to kindergarten, so it was definitely like, I have this time, I can use it or lose it, and everybody says, you don't get these years back.

But I don't care what everybody says. What about you?

I mean, there are things I loved about my job, there are things I did not like about my job, so I don't think this particular one was the right fit for me. And it's also like 75% travel, up to 75% travel, which with little kids is just not.

normal. So what I'm getting at is, if you wanted to quit your other job because it's 75% travel, quit that job all day long. I did.

Right.

But, he's saying, but don't put it on your kids to carry, because then you get this weird guilt thing that is unnecessary. And so if that's not the right job for you, cool, spend a few months at home, regroup and recalibrate and spend those precious days, you don't get back, et cetera, and then find out, okay, here's what I really want to do. Because as somebody who's good at sales, you can literally work anywhere, anywhere.

Yeah.

And so I thought so, so just looking around at jobs, a lot of the jobs I've had, you either have to live in San Francisco or New York, but I mean, I did the Zoom thing for two years and I love the kind of in-person interaction. So that kind of leads itself to real estate, but I also did real estate for five years and that didn't really, I don't know, it wasn't it for me either. So I'm not quite sure where to go from here. All right.

So now we can focus on that part. Right. But I wanted to get to this other stuff first, because I think that, I think you could be, I think you need a little bit more time at home. I agree with John. Also to know, was it just spring break and that was a little bit too much for me in re-entry?

Like let's just get into-. Yeah, you also jumped into, yeah, you swan dived into the frying pan.

Yeah. Like. I'd like to see you not just take some time to be with the kids, but also to go, well, wait a second, do I like this new role? And let's stop making it about, well, baby step six and I could go earn more money. I just want you to sit for a season because you can, correct?

Yes, I can, but also we've saved up a fair amount. We just recently became network millionaires, which is very exciting. I would like to keep it that way and watching the account tick down, it's very stressful for me.

Okay. I get that. But again, we're not talking for six months. We're just saying, I want you to just sit, because here's the deal. We got to figure out what's next for you anyway, and I'm not so sure.

Yes. All right.

You've been very successful. You've been very successful in multiple things. What's the thing that you think about? You go, I think I can do this. And if we didn't have to think about for just a moment, San Francisco, New York, wherever, you just said, I'd like to take a shot at this.

Yeah. I'd love to sell outdoor gear and work with design and creating something that makes people live better and healthier.

Now, see, that's very personal to you.

Yes.

Then that's what I would be angling towards. That's Patagonia.

That's REI. Can you go get started at a local store and work your way through there as the seasons change in your life?

I could, but again, it's hard to go from making $70 an hour to $17 an hour. Yeah, but you quit that job.

You quit that job. And it was cool while you had it, and it served a role to get you to millionaire status. And now it's time to do something. that's got more time with your family, that's not going to take as much brainpower, and you can still work towards your mission, right?

And I appreciate that, John, but, Sheila, that's not who she is. Sheila, I'd rather you take some time and hold out, and let's go look for a role with those kind of companies. And I'd be starting in your area. Don't just assume that some great company's not there in Kansas City. I'd start there and work my way out.

And I'd also be really interested in getting into net zero building and developing, but again, two totally different career paths.

Doesn't matter. Hold on a second. See, that's what I love. Those are two options that you need to explore in the days ahead. Because, as long as you are selling, right, or, let me use the word, let me take you out of a sales role for a moment and go, what if you're just in a role where you're involved in promoting?

Yes, often.

All right, then. There's a lot of roles that involve that talent. You've got a great resume too, like a really nice resume. Am I correct?

Yeah, I do. I just fix it up and I think it's bigger than me at the moment, which is a unique issue to have.

Yeah, but it's just, this is something new. So here's the deal. Take all that sales experience, all that confidence that you have, let's channel it. Let's start looking at those two specific ideas that you just gave us and let's see what's out there and go for it and be okay in the season where maybe the bank account's whittling down just a little bit, because I'm not worried about you replacing it at all. But you've got to be you.

Hi, Ken. Hi, John. Thank you so much for taking my call.

How much do you owe on your primary home?

On a primary home, we owe $197,000..

If I heard you correct, I just want to do a quick review here. You have a $25,000 personal loan and you owe $197,000 on your primary home and outside of those two investment homes, that's all the debt that you have?

Correct.

The idea is, you would sell one of these investment homes?

Or both. One or both.

Wait, wait, wait. Is your husband up to this plan, or did you just make this call and thought, well, I'll see what Ken and John think and I'll tell him later?

Well played. Well played. We've talked about it.

You've talked about it, but you led with my husband's planning on these homes being a part of his retirement. When you threw that in there, I was like, does he know? How open to this? When you discussed it, how open to this is he?

He wants numbers. He wants plans written out so that he can see it.

All right, let's do it.

And we've met with... Yeah.

Okay, so let's walk through that.

That's what I need.

All right, let's walk through that. All right, so let's go. Let me write this down. Investment home number one, how much do you owe on it first, and what do you believe it's worth?

Okay, we owe $46,000 on it and it's worth about $240,000..

Okay, and then let's do the same thing for investment property. two. What do you owe on it?

We owe $76,000 on it and it's worth about $150,000..

Okay. All right, so there's your numbers. So we've got $197,000 on the house. We got the $25,000.. What do you guys make?

Joint income. Without the rent income, we make $150,000..

Okay. So how long, if you guys buckled down, would it take you to pay off the $25,000 personal loan?

I would say probably six or seven months.

That sounds about right.

Okay.

And because of what these houses are worth, I think it's up in the air. I mean, I don't know what John thinks. My gut says where you guys are on this process, you can knock out the $25,000 and now you're, by our definition, debt-free in baby step two. And then you guys could get pretty quickly into baby step three, the three to six months emergency fund, correct? You guys could knock that out pretty quick?

Yeah, a month or two probably.

That's what I thought. So I kind of want to see you guys treat these rental properties as part of the baby steps is where my head goes.

No, I mean, I like, I think selling one of these rental properties to clear everything puts you right back in the same boat two years from now, because you haven't learned, you haven't learned that you and your husband have to learn to work together and stick to a plan over a period of time.

Okay. That's a plan.

Are you guys on a budget?

Yes, we are. Yep.

I mean, I'm trying to do some math here. I'm thinking three years from now, you guys are out of debt on these homes. Am I right?

On all three? Mm-hmm.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, not all three. On the two rental homes.

Oh, okay.

Because you told me it would be six to seven months to knock out the $25,000 personal loan, and then we're going to be able to knock out, you said, a couple more months for the three to six months expenses.

Hold on. What do you do for a living?

I'm a legal assistant.

Okay. What's he do?

He's a lab manager.

Okay. I would love to see you all come together and say, we can do this. and say, 45 days, this $25,000 is gone, what has to happen?

Yeah.

Like-.

45 days?

Yep. Wow. Like, I'm going to get up at five o'clock and I'm going to drive Uber until it's time for me to go to work, and then I'm going to drive into the office. And then you're going to get off, and you're going to go deliver Uber Eats while he takes care of the kids, or whatever the plan you'll come up with. But I want that $25,000 to kind of sting a little bit.

Mm-hmm.

You see what I'm saying?

Yeah, that sounds about right.

And here's what you are. You're America.

But I got rental income. I got cash flow. What are you making on each house, the rental house?

On the rental property, our rent income is $1,850.. And on the second one, it's $1,400..

That's net?

And all three of our properties are on a 15-year mortgage.

Okay, good. But that's net? Those numbers are after your... That's what you're netting over and above your mortgage? No.

No, no, no. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. So our net on the first one is $1,000, and our net on the second one is $500.. Yeah.

So just to let you know why you need to pay these off, because that's not anything to get excited about.

No. $500..

$500 a month? Are you kidding me?

Work Saturdays at Starbucks. It's the same thing.

You're actually losing money on that house after you guys fix it up and do gentle repairs.

Yeah, we do.

Sell that one.

Good grief. I'm wrong. I totally retracted what I was saying. Not because you can't get it paid off, because it's a bad investment.

Yeah. I could go either way. I don't disagree with John. John makes the right point, though. Selling these is the quick fix to a problem that you don't actually learn from, unless you have the pain.

You make $500 a month.

Even after you pay the mortgage off on those, those aren't really worth it. Now that I think about it.

No. No.

You know what?