modern romance, a talk with lori gottlieb [video]
2023-08-03 01:08:56
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Today, we're going to be talking to Dr. Lori Gottlieb, a psychotherapist, host of The Dear Therapist podcast. Author of the 2019 New York Times bestselling book. Maybe You Should Talk To someone. It's a memoir about her experiences, both as a therapist and as a patient in therapy. She is an expert on all things therapy, mental health, psychology, you name it. She knows. Today I want to specifically talk to her about relationships, romantic relationships, especially in our current world.
I think there's a lot of challenges that come with dating in the age of technology.
I'm curious to talk to a psychotherapist about the challenges of dating in our modern world, while also just talking about relationships in general. Because, listen, they're challenging to begin with, they're challenging without the added complication of the digital age. She'll give us advice, she'll give us the facts, she'll give us her opinions. It's going to be a pleasure. Why do you think it's so much harder to date today?
If you were to pinpoint one thing, what do you think? That? One main thing would be because in theory, it should be easier than ever, right? We have so much access to whoever we want at any given moment, yet it's harder than ever to succeed in dating. Now, I'm curious why you think that is.
I think it's exactly what you said. We have so much choice. When I grew up, we did not have that much choice. You think, well, choice is a good thing and access is a good thing. But what happens is you have this illusion that there are so many other people out there. You go on a first date with somebody, if you even get that far. Because all the texting and the talking and everything, the talking stage. And then you finally meet, or you go on a date, or you hang out or whatever happens. And then it's like, Yeah, I had a good time. But let me go swipe through the apps or let me go see who else is out there.
Let me see who's at this other party. There's this idea that it's not like you're going to focus on one person if you don't feel some amazing chemistry the first time. The problem is that a lot of people. If you ask people who have been together for a long time and they're really happy, they might say, Yeah, I wasn't really. We had a good time, but I wasn't really. There wasn't this Butterflies and that amazing spark the first time.
Sometimes it takes hanging out with people over time.
Very, very true. It's almost like you kind of have to be determined at times to make someone work. I think we sort of are so overexposed to media that portrays perfect relationships, right? Like TV movies, social media. We're constantly seeing perfect relationships. What I'm hearing is our expectations are unhealthily high, right?
Not a word, but they're too high, they're unrealistic. It's like, what do you think is a healthy amount of expectation?
Well, first of all, I think you have to have high expectations. I don't think the problem is that the expectations are too high. I think they're high about the wrong things.
Yes, absolutely.
People have very low standards when it comes to things like the character issues, reliability, trust.
Whether you both want the same thing. So many times, I hear as a therapist, people will come in and they'll say, Yeah, I really like, I'm so into this guy. And I don't understand why. He didn't call and he said he would call and then he didn't. But then, yeah, we're going out again. It's kind of like, is this what you want to be? and why are your standards so low? Okay?
Interesting Okay, yeah, so it's almost like the priorities are just all off.
Yes, and they don't value enough the things that actually, when you look at studies of people who have been together for a long time, and you don't even need studies for this. But it seems really intuitive that what you want is you want someone that you feel comfortable with. And so many times, people are obsessed with people who are leaving them wondering. They don't really know what's going on, they're not really telling the truth about things, they don't have open conversations.
They don't feel comfortable having open conversations, they get ghosted and then the person reappears.
Yeah.
They don't, nobody's talking about the important things, they don't know what's happening, so you can't feel comfortable.
Relationships are really challenging. A good relationship is really, really challenging. Do you think that young people now are struggling to push through those challenging moments? Because there's probably someone else on a dating app that they could go find, you know, just so that they don't have to deal with that issue with this person, but still have some sort of romantic connection, right? Like, do you think young people are giving up sooner because they don't really have to fight? Like there's, there's so many other options out there.
Have you noticed that?
Yeah, I think that when people hear the word work, that that turns them off. Because nobody wants to think like, relationships are work. But what they do take is they take intentionality and effort. And so if you're not paying attention in the relationship, or the other person isn't paying attention, then yeah. You're going to feel lonely. You're going to feel dissatisfied, you're going to feel like this isn't fun anymore.
And so I think people don't then push through that, they don't say, Hey, this is what's going on, and they, or if they notice it, it's too late. So many people wait until things are really bad and then they just break up. Instead of saying, what? If we had addressed this when this first started, what would have happened then?
And then they think, Oh, I'm going to go off and find someone else. And it's always so easy in the beginning with someone else. It's always so fun, it's always so, you know, it's like, this is exciting. And they say, Oh, it was so bad in my last relationship.
And look at compared to this. And then they get to that hard point again. And it's kind of like, if a fight breaks out in every bar, you're going to, maybe it's you.
Right?
And so nobody. And so at a certain point, you have to say, wait a minute, this is happening every time, right? Maybe it's me, maybe I am not really looking at what, how I can show up in a relationship. Yes, you know, when people come to therapy, they're always like, Oh, I want to change the other person.
Like, the other person is doing this, and how can I get them to change? As opposed to? What do I need to do to show up as my best self in this relationship and then see if that influences how the other person is?
I think what's interesting, too, about dating now, is that social media sort of brings out narcissistic traits in people. Obviously, you know, having narcissistic traits doesn't make you a narcissist necessarily, but those traits also make dating really challenging, right? Do you think that is playing a role in making dating more challenging for young people?
Oh, absolutely. I think social media is kind of like, promotes this cancel culture of in dating, yes, so it's kind of like, you know, this person did this. They're a narcissist.
It's like.
Right, right, right.
Or this person is gaslighting me. Yeah, you know, actually, they just have a different perspective.
Right, yeah, that's true.
You know, so people misuse these terms like narcissist boundaries. People think that a boundary is. You tell someone you want this and they must obey that, and if they don't, then forget it. All bets are off.
I'm out of here as opposed to. Well, can we discuss why this is important to you, and can we discuss what also works for me? But there's this idea of if you are not getting your needs met. And the definition of that is, if the other person isn't doing exactly what I want them to do, then this is not a healthy relationship. Yeah, and that's so messed up.
It's really damaging.
Yes.
What's interesting, too, is that now the line is getting blurred in a way. Because I think it's really hard to admit when. Maybe you're part of the problem too. Yes, and you know, in a lot of relationship challenges, you know it takes two to tango and both. A lot of times, both parties are part of the problem. Every single situation is different, right?
Well, relationships are like a dance if you think of them that way. So if you change your dance steps, the other person is going to either have to change their dance steps too. Or they'll just fall flat on the floor. So people think, well, I don't want to go first. This person needs to do this in order for me to act that way toward them and that just so backward.
You need to change and do the thing you want to do, how you want to be, and see what happens. If the other person's going to change their dance steps or not. Which gives you really good information. And I think the problem going back to what you're saying about this idea of I need this in a relationship. And if they don't do that, you know, in my book, I talk about the difference between idiot compassion and wise compassion, so idiot compassion is what we do with our friends. We say, listen to what my partner did, listen to what this person did, and we're like, Yeah, they're wrong, you're right.
You deserve better, you go, girl.
That's what we say to our friends. Even when deep down you're like, ugh, yeah, you're like, you did what you might need to apologize in your head, but you can't say that. Yeah, that's very true.
Yeah.
Or I can see the other side of this. But you don't say that to your friend because you think you're being supportive by saying like, you're amazing, you deserve everything. How dare they do that to you, or say that to you? In therapy? What you get is wise compassion, not idiot compassion.
So, wise compassion is where we hold up a mirror to you and we help you to see something about your role in the situation that maybe you haven't been willing or able to see. And it's not saying you're to blame for this, it's to say two people are interacting. And let's look at what you're doing. Even if the other person is doing something that clearly they shouldn't be doing, how do you respond to that? Are you stonewalling?
Are you like not talking to them? are you freezing them out? are you yelling at them? are you then retaliating? What are you doing in response?
That is just making the situation worse.
I wonder if the age of the internet has impacted our ability and comfortability with open face-to-face communication. Are you seeing maybe more patients come in who are really struggling to communicate in person? You know, like it's so much easier to just text someone and be like, we're over broken up. You know what I mean, than it is to go and solve the problem. I wonder if that has been made worse now. And you know, how does one learn to flex that muscle?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's such an important point. So many people will come in and they'll sit on my couch and they'll be like, and so they're telling me about a conversation they had, you know, and then I had this one person come in and she's like, and then I said, and then he said, and then I said, and I'm like, what does she do? Oh, and I said, you had that conversation on text.
And she's like, Yeah, why did you have that conversation on text? Somebody else came in and said, So I told him I was moving out, and then I found out later, she told him on text, on text.
I know, right?
People rely on it.
Right, especially young people, yeah.
Because that's just normal for them, right? They don't have a lot of experience having face-to-face conversations, and what they do is they hide behind their phones. So they don't have to be in the room for the hard conversations. There's so much empathy that's created when you're actually talking to the person right in front of you.
That you can forget about when you're texting, like you don't have as much empathy when you're texting. And I always say, too, that. I think when you don't have a lot of experience with face-to-face conversations, you don't have a lot of empathy. But you also don't know how to listen.
Totally.
Listening is not just I hear what you said. A lot of times people are listening because they're used to the text thing. It's like, Oh, this message comes in, how am I going to respond to that when you're face-to-face? First of all, we need to ask the other person, How can I be here for you right now? Sometimes people just want to vent.
And that's just what they want. They don't want you to fix it, they don't want your ideas, they don't want your solutions, they just want you to be there.
And that makes them feel better. And maybe a couple days later, they'll say, You know, the thing that I was talking about the other day. Now, I really want your input. Now. I'm really curious. But the other thing is, people are thinking about how they're going to respond when the other person's talking.
So you're not really hearing the person. When I was training to be a therapist, one of my clinical supervisors said, Remember that you have two ears and one mouth. There's a reason for that ratio.
That's really true. I would love to hear you go into detail about actually what it means to really listen. Because as an adult, I've been sort of figuring that out for the first time. And it was kind of crazy to me because I had never thought about it before, it was like, you just don't think about listening.
It's so obvious, but I think the first step to becoming a good listener is being mindful about what listening even is. So I'd love to hear your definition.
Yeah, I think that what's great about younger people today is that they know how to get their voices heard. And I think that that's really important. And I do think it's a very empathetic generation.
Yes.
But sometimes because of all of these things that get in the way of what makes us human. Like face-to-face interactions, like taking the other person's perspective. We so want people to hear why we feel the way we feel. So somebody's telling you something about how some interaction happened, right? And you're thinking, Oh, I didn't intend to hurt you, I didn't intend to do that. You so want to tell them your side of it and why you're not to blame for this, and why you didn't mean to hurt them, or why you chose to do the thing you did.
You're not listening at all, you're just trying to tell them something about you that's outgoing, but incoming is, oh, I want to understand more about their inner life, I want to hear more about how this felt to them.
So what I tell people often when they really come to these impasses? We just had a couple on the podcast, a young, they were in their 20s, they met in high school. And they're like, why is it that we love each other so much? Why is it that our fights? They escalate? Like whenever we have a disagreement, it becomes an argument and it escalates. And we end up saying things we don't mean, we end up raising our voices.
We don't know why we do that. And so we had them. Listen to the other person and then tell the story from the other person's perspective. And you can't bring in your own. It doesn't mean you agree with everything like you might have seen it differently, so it doesn't mean you agree with it.
It's just if you were in their shoes, how would you have experienced this? It's an amazing exercise to do with friends, with romantic partners, with anybody. Because all of a sudden you're like, Oh, wow, I'm seeing it really differently.
Yes.
And I didn't realize they felt this way. now, I can see why they felt this way, I didn't understand it before.
I think truly listening is you do really have to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Yes, and I think that is a skill that takes time to develop. We're all the center of our own universe, right?
And you kind of have to unlearn that when it comes to listening and being in relationships.
I think that it's harder for people who have grown up thinking that they can put anything out there. And so again, it's a lot of outgoing and not a lot of incoming. They forget that we're all unreliable narrators, that we make up stories all the time, that's how humans operate, We make up stories about. Why did that person act that way?
Why did they do that? So we come up with stories, we make a lot of assumptions that aren't true, and we also have stories about ourselves. Like, you know, I can't trust anyone, or I'm not good enough, or I'm unlovable. And then we act them out in our relationships, and we don't even know that we're acting them out.
And so I think that the part of this problem is that we don't examine our stories to see whether we're carrying around these faulty narratives. So someone comes into therapy and they tell me this whole story of something that happened that week. But first of all, we want to look good in the story, of course, and we don't even realize we're doing that.
So we're kind of emphasizing certain things that we did that we think were very healthy in that interaction, and we minimize that the other person did. That might be something that made them look good, right? Because we're trying to get someone to validate our experience, we want someone to back us up.
But if you actually tell the story from a more nuanced point of view, which means.
So I will say to somebody, tell the story from his or her, their point of view. Tell me what if they were sitting on my couch right now? How would they tell this story? And all of a sudden the story gets really, really interesting, it gets really rich.
It gets really nuanced and now we can work with that, now we have a solution. Now we can say, Oh, I understand this better, I understand this other person better.
And this is what I can do in those situations. Instead, it doesn't mean you were wrong or they were right, it just means this is what it was. And what can you learn about how to connect in a better way with this person?
Because I think what we all want at the end of the day is. The question everyone is asking is how can I love and be loved? How do I connect? how do I feel valued? how can I make the other person feel valued?
Why is it so challenging for us to admit when maybe we fell short in some areas again? Is that something that you can teach yourself over time? How to sort of remove your ego from this type of stuff and just truly approach these situations? Just trying to do the right thing?
Yes.
Yeah, I'm curious how you can work on that.
Yeah, I think it's shame, and shame is really toxic.
Yeah.
Because shame is, I am bad, not what I did was bad, but I am bad. So the problem is that when we feel like somebody's pointing out something that we could have done better or could have done differently, we hear something's wrong with you, not something's wrong with what you did, and so that's where the shame comes in. We don't separate out what we did from who we are.
Yeah.
And I think that then we try to deflect it because we don't want to feel like I'm a bad person or something's wrong with me. And here's an example of that. So a couple I was seeing, they just moved in together, they were in their 20s. And she would say, When we run out of toilet paper, can you please pick up toilet paper on the way home? I'm so tired of not having toilet paper in the house.
And he would say, Oh, they were out of it when he forgot it.
Of course.
And that would just drive her bananas. It's like, Seriously, dude, just say you forgot, right? All I want to know is that you forgot. But he would think, Oh, I don't want to be that guy who isn't stepping up or isn't doing my part. And so he would just lie all the time about little things.
All the time he would lie and she's like, I can't trust you because you lie about stuff and I never know when you're lying. So one day he came home and he forgot something and she was about to get really mad because she was expecting the lie. And he said, I'm really sorry, I forgot.
And he was expecting her to get really mad, and she cried and hugged him. Oh, that's so sweet. She was like, Thank you, thank you, so much. thank you for just telling me you forgot.
Like, that helps me feel connected to you, that helps me trust you. And now let's come up with a way that you can remember, like, maybe you need me to text you, or maybe whatever.
Totally.
Right, but just say it.
Yeah, it's almost like we think that the way to keeping our partner around and keeping them. Sort of, you know, in our court, if you will. Whatever is to be sort of perfect and to never mess up. Or like, show vulnerability like, you know, or show that. There's a little mistake. But I do think that that creates such a massive disconnect and it has the opposite effect. Completely right?
It's like, in a weird way. I think that is what makes you feel like, oh, my partner is a human, which makes me feel safer because I'm a human too. And I make mistakes too. It's almost like when both parties try to put their ego aside, try to just be completely you know themselves, unapologetically mistakes, and all the bond is stronger. Is that so?
Yes, and again, this comes to trust and honesty. But I think that there's this paradox where people think I have to present the best version of myself for this person to want to be with me. And what I always say is if you show the truth of who you are. Which is what people are terrified to do. Because they think that's when someone won't want to be with them, that actually that person is going to feel more drawn to you.
So true.
And that's the paradox, people, for so long, you know, I think there's this old joke. I think it was maybe Chris Rock who said, like, you know, for the first three months of a relationship, you're not you, you're the ambassador of you.
100, 100, you are a character.
It's like, you're not going to, like, even go to the bathroom near that, like, you're going to be like, Oh, I'll hold it till tomorrow.
Literally, really, yeah.
And so then people think, like, Oh, I don't want them to see this, or I don't want them to see this aspect of me. But the fact is that there is such a connection, a human connection, that people make when they both show the truth of who they are. That doesn't mean act crazy, that doesn't mean be like, be someone that someone doesn't want to be with. It means that you're human and you have insecurities, and you have quirks, and you make mistakes and you mess up. And that's fine if you own up to it and if you're honest about it.
Yeah, I think the challenging balance of a relationship is balancing what you keep to yourself and what you don't bring up to your partner, right? While also balancing that with being open and being vulnerable and allowing yourself to feel that connection with your partner. Because you can't without the vulnerability and without the honesty, there's no real connection. But then, at the same time, there are some things that sometimes you have to keep to yourself.
I mean, for me, I will get upset about something, right? But I let it sit for a minute and a lot of times it just goes away. And I'm like, Actually, that was my own issue, you know?
Yeah, I didn't need to bring that up.
Well, I think you're talking about two separate things, one is not going from zero to 60. When we say if it's hysterical, it's historical, which means that if you're having a big reaction to something, that. Maybe partly it's about what just happened with somebody in front of you, but partly it's something from your past. That that kind of pathway just got activated and you got triggered by something, so if it's hysterical, it's historical meaning. Maybe there's something that you need to reflect on before you react, there's that space between stimulus and response.
So stimulus is this thing just happened. I'm having a big reaction, I can feel it in my body, I just got really upset.
Let me take a minute here before I do anything with that. I don't want to be reactive. And then if there's something you need to bring up, yes, do it, but from a more reflective place. But the thing that you were talking about before is privacy, and there's a difference between secrecy and privacy.
So secrecy is where I think that's not good. secrecy is there's something that you need to say or share that you're not, you're hiding something.
Privacy is we all need a room of one's own, okay, so Virginia Woolf, we all need these spaces. That this is for me, this is my space. It doesn't hurt the other person in any way for me to have this.
A secret is something where this person really needs to have this information, and I'm hiding this information from them. I should have told them that I was really here when I said I was here. That's not privacy, that's secrecy, secrecy is.
I really want to date other people and I'm not really sharing that.
It's negatively impacting the other person that you're keeping it from them, right?
It's something that you would want to know that if they were holding that.
Right?
So that's kind of a litmus test. Would I want to know this?
I think it's really treacherous for young people getting into relationships for the first time. Figuring out what to say or like when to say something, when not to say something, when to let something incubate in your mind for a while. I think all of that is partially intuitive, but also partially learned too, and I guess practice makes perfect, would you agree?
Yes, I mean, I think that people don't have to be perfect. In relationships, you learn from things.
Absolutely.
And I think that that's why it's so important for people to not do this kind of. You know, I'll go on a date with someone and then I'll go look at the apps, like in the car as I'm walking out of the date. Let me go just scroll through and see who else is there. Because you really need practice in relationships, and the only way to do that is to be in one.
Absolutely.
And so, if you're just dating and dating, and dating and dating, you're not learning that much about how to be in a relationship.
Actually, speaking of that perfect transition. There's also been sort of a rise in popularity with kind of new forms of dating that maybe weren't as popular in the past. You know, hookup culture, as it's called a rejection of commitment, I've noticed with a lot of young people big fear of commitment. Would you say that these types of dating are empowering, damaging? Both? depends.
I think that the idea of keeping your options open is very much in the air in your generation, that I want to keep my options open. I want to kind of maximize, let me see what else is out there, I don't want to get sort of tied down.
But I think the problem with not choosing, because that's really what it is, is not choosing, is that if you don't choose something, you really end up with nothing. Yes, like, not choosing is making a choice. And it starts to feel very empty for a lot of people. That's what I hear all the time from people who come in to see me.
Is they feel like I thought I would like this? I don't really like this, I'm afraid to bring it up with the other person. And there are these studies that have been done about satisficers versus maximizers. This is Barry Schwartz and the paradox of choice.
And it's when we have too many options, we get overloaded. We weren't built for that, we weren't built to have a million options in anything. Whether it's like, which flavor of ice cream should I have?
Which looking online when you're shopping, you'll shop online, and you'll be like, Okay, I found this, I found this, I found this, you put it all in your cart.
Let me look at this other place, and then you end up buying nothing because you're like, I couldn't decide.
Absolutely absolutely.
So, to make it sort of concrete about dating, that if we use the shopping example, a satisficer will say. I'm looking for a new sweater. And they go into a store and maybe like the first or second store that they go into, they find a really cute sweater. They really love it, it's the right color, it fits well, they feel hot in it.
It's the right price, it's great, I'm going to get it right, Satisficer gets it.
They wear it, they get lots of compliments on it, they love it, they feel good in it. A maximizer goes into the first or second store.
They find the same sweater, they're like, yeah, great fits, great, love it, look good in it.
Great price, whatever, but let me, just like, hide it under the other sweaters while I go look at the store over there. And so then they go and they're like, maybe I can find something like a slightly different color, or maybe it's on sale, or maybe it has this different fabric, or whatever it is, right.
And so they go, and then maybe after 10 stores, they think they find the thing, but then when they get it, they're not as happy with it. It turns out that then they get it, and then even when they have the thing, that feels like they maximized on price and fit and everything else. That the next time they're walking by a store, they're like, Oh, look at that, maybe that would have been better. That's what we do in dating. So instead of being like, I had a good time with this person.
Let me go and spend another two hours with them and hang out with them again. We're like, Yeah, but let me go also date these other people or this other person, and then they're never happy. No matter what it is, it's like, Yeah, I like that person, but they don't have this and I like this.
It's like, you can't order up a person a la carte. You can't say I'll take this quality of this person, I'll take this person's physical appearance, I'll take this person's personality. I'll take this person's sense of humor, this person's intelligence, this person's interest, this person's creativity.
You can't do that, you get like, it comes as it comes, there's no substitutions. Yes, you don't get to, like, you know, say, oh, no, I'll take this instead of this quality of this person.
Yes.
And someone's taking you with no substitutions too, absolutely, and we forget that.
Totally, I mean, I think, too. If you're constantly searching for the perfect thing, do you think that that sort of lessens the value? In a way of all of the things in your mind, right? Like, if you're being so overexposed to every type of sweater, right? Every type of sweater, you've seen every type of sweater, and you've tried every type of sweater.
Then now you're like, it's just like, it's hard to. it's hard to become excited now by a sweater.
That's right.
So do you is that like, accurate for dating as well? Like, if you're just dating and dating and dating and dating and dating, you kind of become numb to it in a way.
Because you're not getting to the good part of dating, the good part of dating is what is it like? To be seen in this way by another person, to be known by another person, to feel loved by this other person, and vice versa? And for them to have that from you and to feel so connected to someone and to be someone. And you're accepted for all of your quirks and all of your weirdness and all of those things, and you accept them. And you have fun with this person. And you went through hard times. And when you're having a bad day, you can just show them your bad day and you're not on, right? This isn't the social media posts.
This is like, this is you at your worst, at your best, and everything in between. That's what people really love about having a partner, one partner, that person, but people don't get to that. So yeah, they don't get to the part where it's like, Oh wow, now I see what's so exciting about this.
Yes, yes, I want to build on the possible consequences, I guess, sort of this numbness that one can experience. If they are sort of dating like they're shopping for that sweater, right? What do you think the consequences are of hookup culture when it comes to long-term dating, like, how does that sort of manifest in a relationship?
I'm curious, what are the negative side effects of hookup culture? When then somebody does want to get into that long-term relationship.
It's kind of like, if there's a job that you really want, you don't want that to be your first job interview. You want to have some practice where you kind of mess up in some other ones and you learn things and you become more confident and you become better skilled. People don't have the skills for relationships when they really decide they want them, and so the stakes get higher. Because all of a sudden you might meet someone and you say, Whoa, I want to get really serious with this person, but you don't know how to do that. Part of it is they don't have practice being vulnerable.
They don't have practice knowing what that looks like, they don't have practice in conflict resolution, they don't have practice in what does it look like? When we both have different needs, because you're two different people, you will have different needs, what do you do?
You don't just compromise in the middle, then everybody's unhappy. I think there's this misconception about what compromise is, compromise is not. I'll kind of settle for something in the middle, and you'll kind of settle for something in the middle, and then nobody's happy. That would suck, right?
So compromise is we're a team, we're really creative. Let's figure out how we can find something that we're both happy with, not something that we're both settling for, something that we're both happy with. How do we talk about that? That takes a lot of practice, that's negotiation.
Negotiation is not somebody wins and somebody loses, it's we both want. How do we make sure we both win?
Yeah, I guess a hookup culture might be like playing soccer in the backyard. And then it's time to go to play on varsity in high school immediately after that.
That's right.
You never played JV, right?
Right, so many people will say also, I'm just working on myself right now and then I'll be ready to be in a relationship. And yes, work on yourself. But that's to use your analogy. It's like shooting baskets at the park or something without getting in a game. You've never played in a game. You can shoot baskets forever. You can work on yourself forever. But until you get in a game, all this stuff is going to come up.
When you're in a relationship, you don't realize how much your own stuff comes up. I think couples therapy is the best therapy people can do. Because individually, they will learn so much about themselves and all of the baggage that they're bringing into this relationship. That has nothing to do with the other person or has little to do with the other person.
What do you think? Obviously, I've just been shitting on casual dating, which is not my goal, of course. But I do think that there are a lot of not discussed enough negative sides of it, right? But I am curious, do you see any positives from hookup culture? or, and maybe you don't, but do you see any positives with hookup culture, with casual dating? Not putting labels, not committing, I mean, is there anything about that that's actually helpful for people?
I'm curious.
I think what generally happens is one person catches feelings for the other person, and I think that people can say to themselves, Oh, you know, I mean, if you're attracted enough to the person to want to be hooking up with them. And then you start maybe sharing things about your life, or you, maybe you're hanging out with them. More people become attached or you get disgusted by the other person, you know, you're like, Oh, I don't even want to be around that person. So the fact is, if you really want to be around that person as much as you are, you're going to feel something, or else you're just going to cut it off. So I think that what happens is that people get jealous people, you know, they, they, they feel like they have to keep their shield up because they can't really let their guard down. Because, you know, they can't let the other person know that they actually feel more than they feel, or they like the person more, they're starting to like the person more than they imagined they would.
So I I think that in general, um, somebody gets hurt. Yeah, now there are. There are open relationships where everybody knows here are the rules, here's what we're doing, here's, here's how we communicate with each other about that. That's different from people are just doing whatever they want to do and they're saying, yeah, which is casual, but nobody's really talking about what that means. And they don't tend to last very long.
Right, I guess an open relationship is sort of a different category. I didn't really think about it, but it totally is because it does have a label on it.
It does, and there are rules.
There are rules. Yeah, right, do you think labels in relationships are healthy?
I think understanding that you both are on the same page about what this relationship is and what the parameters are.
Yeah.
So whatever you want to call it, it doesn't matter whether you call it, you know, you can call the person, whatever you call them. But I think that you both have had the conversation, we're monogamous, we're not monogamous, you know, what does it mean? What are we doing? And I think that it just makes people feel so much more relaxed to know.
Yeah.
There's so much angst around, what does it mean? Yeah, like, what is that?
Lots of games.
There's a lot of games and then people retaliate with games. Not because they're trying to get back at them, but just because they're trying to save their dignity or they don't want to feel needy. Yeah, and by the way, needy is a word that nobody wants associated with them, but we are all needy, absolutely.
We all need things, yeah.
So if you're not needy, you know, there's so many people who think I'm just going to be the cool girl. I'm not going to have any needs. It's fine, whatever's going on, and then they feel like crap.
They don't feel cool, they don't.
No.
You need to have needs. Yes, you need to be needy. But the only definition of needy that we have in our culture is someone who's like, too clingy, too much, but needy is just you have needs, like a normal human.
It's like, Well, what's the point of a relationship if you're not, you know, leaning on the other?
Person.
Like, getting what, some of what you need from that person, that's the whole point, I guess.
I think guys are especially worried about that, totally, and what I see is guys come in and they feel like they can't share anything that's going on in their lives with the person they're dating. And they say things like, I've never told anyone this before, right?
They'll say that to me, the therapist, and then what they say is something that, like, girls discuss over lunch.
Totally.
Like, we would just say that to our friends. But they feel like they couldn't say it to anyone because they would seem weak or needy. Or not strong. In some way, you know, like women will come in in their 20s or something. They'll be like, I've never told anyone this before. And then as you're talking about it, it turns out they've told like their mother, their sister, their best friend, right?
Totally so. They've told like a few people, but they feel like because they haven't told everyone.
Right?
That no one knows, that no one knows exactly. And so I see this in couples too. When they come in, you know, usually it's, you know, and I see all kinds of couples, but if I'm seeing a heterosexual couple, it's usually the woman who says to the guy like, I want you to open up to me, I want you to tell me more.
I feel like we're not connected. Share with me.
Yes.
And then they're sitting on my couch right in front of me. And he does, and maybe he says something really vulnerable, and maybe he even tears up a little bit. Inevitably, she will look at me like a deer in headlights, like, Oh, my God.
I don't know what to do.
I don't know what to do and what comes out is. I don't feel safe when he doesn't open up to me because I feel really disconnected and I want to know what's going on with him. But I also don't feel safe when he's being really vulnerable with me because of that cultural stigma. And so we need to be better at allowing men not giving them permission, but making them feel safe and comfortable and inviting and welcoming.
Yes.
Please, you can cry in front of me, that is fine, that is fine.
Yes.
Please, I want you to be your full whole self in front of me and not being like, EW, what are you doing, of course.
I think when you want that from a relationship, you also have to understand that it's going to be incredibly human in a way that you've never seen before. But I do think, what a beautiful thing when someone is finally able to open up in a relationship.
I think sometimes people want to create vulnerability and this is not a good thing to do. By revealing things really early on. Like, you just dump it all out there and then they think, Well, that's going to make us really close.
No.
So trust is something that builds over time, and so do the habits in a relationship. If someone isn't being reliable, or someone's coming late all the time, or they're not texting you back, or whatever it is. Relationships are like cement in the beginning, there's room to talk about things and mold things, but cement dries really fast, same with in relationships.
So if you guys create something between you where you're not talking about certain things. Or we avoid things when we get mad at each other instead of talking about the things or whatever it is. It's really hard, once the cement dries to change those things. So you don't want to come in too fast with like, I'm going to invite vulnerability, you're not inviting vulnerability, you're kind of being weird, right?
Yeah, that's just weird. There's no trust there. Why would you tell this person all this stuff? It's timing and dosage.
Yeah.
And also what you want from a relationship, what you expect in terms of how you want to be treated and how you're going to treat the other person. Don't let the cement dry, bring it up now.
Yeah.
And don't think, Oh, it's so early, I shouldn't bring it up. I'm worried I'm going to scare the person off. No, now's the time to say, Hey, you know, when I text you and I ask you this and I need an answer, and you don't text me until the next day, I really did need an answer.
Do you think cheating is a complete deal breaker?
Well, it's interesting because people betray their partners in all kinds of ways that are not sexual. Meaning. Someone told a lie, someone did something unkind, someone revealed a secret that they weren't supposed to reveal. They told their best friend something, and the partner said, don't tell, but you told your best friend, right? That's a betrayal.
But if you are physically or have an emotional affair, you have some kind of romantic, physical, whatever. We consider cheating, and by the way, couples need to define what they consider cheating, which I'll talk about in a second. But suddenly, that's the deal breaker, right? So why is that? Why is that the betrayal when there are so many other betrayals that happen all the time in a relationship?
That's an interesting way to look at it.
So I think that we really have to step back and say, there are all kinds of betrayals that happen. What are the ones, why are they happening? What are the ones that I tolerate, what are the ones that I don't? How do we talk about them?
So I think it's really situational, I think that sometimes people don't define what cheating is. So, for example, somebody has a coworker that they've been really open and vulnerable with, and it feels like they're not talking about romance or sex. But there's like, this incredibly close relationship and the other partner says, I don't feel comfortable with you having that relationship with her or him. Or, right? But why?
Yeah.
You know, like, is that cheating and why? And so you have to agree as a couple, and what happens when you don't agree? That's a problem, too.
Like, I feel like I should be allowed to have somebody else that I can talk to in this way, even though it's not you. So those are certain situations where you have to say, what do we do? Do we agree about what the parameters of the relationship are?
Someone might say, Well, yeah, we started dating, but no one said we were monogamous yet. So yeah, I went out with someone else and your friend saw them at the restaurant. Is that cheating? Well, we didn't really talk about whether we were monogamous, right? So I went out on this date, but I really wanted to be with you.
When it's really probably a deal breaker is when it's like, Okay, we've been together for 10 years, you're keeping this huge secret from me. Yeah, that's when it's like, okay.
Well, I think even early on, even if you've only been dating for a few months, but you said, we're not dating other people.
Right, that too, totally.
Then that's cheating. So that's a huge rift in the trust and you can't really feel comfortable in any way with somebody if you can't trust them. So the question is, what happens after that? Are you invested enough in this relationship to understand what happened and to see if you can repair this?
What does the other person do in terms of taking responsibility? So does the other person say, Well, we were having a hard time at No. There are lots of ways to deal with having a hard time. Cheating is not one of them. So does the person say I was a hundred percent wrong for doing what I did?
I will never do that again. When we are having trouble in our relationship, let's learn how to talk with each other. In the meantime, you can have access to my phone, you can have access to everything, you can find out where I am. And I'm going to have to tolerate your having this kind of access. Because I need to show you that I'm invested in repairing the trust because now it's completely broken.
Some people might say, Okay, I'm going to trust, but verify meaning I'm going to see, I'm going to take this slowly. We're going to try to rebuild this, we're going to see if I can get past this, if we as a couple can get past this. And the other person is doing everything possible to meet my requests in terms of what I need to build the trust. If the person is not, you, probably, you know, not a lot is going to happen there in terms of you guys rebuilding your trust.
Some people might not even want to go through that process. Some people might say, you know what? I don't feel that I will ever knowing myself, I don't feel like I will ever be able to rebuild the trust. What people don't know is that many people, you just don't hear these stories because people don't publicize them. Had cheating happen with either partner and they've rebuilt the relationship and no one knows because they don't? Because once you tell people so and so cheated on me, your friends will never, ever look at that person again in the same way.
And it's really hard. They will always kind of not feel comfortable around that person, always be suspicious of that person. Anything that happens, any fight you guys get into, any disagreement, like even any conversation you're having. Like, he wants to move here for his job, I want to move here.
Well, fuck him, right?
He cheated totally.
You go make sure he moves to your city, right?
Yes, of course.
Of course.
You mentioned something interesting about, you know? Let's say there was a cheating situation and the partner who cheated gives sort of full access right to their partner. Like, hey, you can see my location, you can read my texts, you can read my emails, whatever you need. How do you feel about couples who do that? Like, in general, like, do you think that's a breach of privacy?
I do, I do, too.
Okay, it's interesting because, you know, I don't share my location even with my boyfriend, and he doesn't share it with me. You know, when I say that to people, they're like, what? I'm glad to hear that that's not, you know, maybe me not pushing enough to make sure. I just think that you wait to take those measures until you need to, right?
Right?
Well, I think what the message it's sending is that you have trust issues coming into the relationship. If this person has done nothing to make you wonder about whether you can trust them, and yet you want access to their emails, these are private conversations, and you don't have to share every conversation with your partner.
No, no.
So they, you know, there's no reason for that. And that feels very controlling, and it also feels like you are very insecure if you're coming into a relationship like that. And sometimes we blame our current partner for something our former partner did.
Oh, of course.
Right?
How fun is that to do? Yes, right?
And so how fun is that for the new person who's like, I didn't do anything, but I'm being punished for everything your ex did?
It's like your ex cheated on you. Yeah, so now you want my location and you want my phone password. Yeah, but it's like I didn't do anything to deserve being intruded upon here.
Right, yeah.
That is so true, it's like the wrong person is in jail.
Exactly exactly.
And I don't want to be in jail for a crime I didn't commit.
Oh, 100 100%.
If you are a person who had some kind of trust breach in a former relationship, work that shit out.
Yeah, yeah, right, yeah.
Before you start doing that with your new partner, you can tell your partner by the way, Hey, this happened in my last relationship, this happened three months ago, It really shook me. I don't want to do that in this relationship. But I just want you to know that that's something that happened. So that I want you to know how important the truth and trust is for me.
Yes.
And I want to put that out at the beginning.
So, to dig into a healthy, long-term relationship, what this looks like. What do you think the core foundation is? And I know again, there's so many sort of cores and pillars and all these, you know, but what do you think is the core foundation for a healthy relationship? In my experience, it's been friendship like a true best friendship, but I'm curious if you agree.
I do, but part of that is emotional stability.
Interesting, Okay, yeah.
Emotional stability is the number one factor that predicts the success of a relationship. Wow, and right after that comes flexibility. People who are very rigid are very hard to be in a long-term relationship with. You don't want someone who's rigid.
People think, Oh, it's quirky, that's their quirk. No, that's going to be impossible to live with.
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely, emotional stability is something that people overlook all the time. They're like, Oh yeah, that person, yeah, they have an addiction, but you know, they're working on it, right, right?
Or, you know, yeah, that person gets angry in this way, but you know, they're really sorry after.
Right?
Or that person is depressed, like, really, seriously depressed, and then you think, but I'll save them.
Right?
You won't save them, they need to work on their depression.
Right, I mean, obviously humans go up and down, ebb and flow, right with their emotional stability. I know I do right, I mean, I think everyone does.
If you're in a long-term relationship, there's a good chance that one member, you know, at least at some point, is going to have a really emotionally unstable moment. If not both of them on and off for the whole relationship, right? How do you handle when that one core foundation, you know, emotional stability is rocked? Because inevitably it will be?
Right, right, how should that be managed?
I think that if you're several years into a relationship and then something, you know, sometimes something happens, someone, you know. There's a death in the family, they lost, their sibling died, their parent died. You know, something is not going well with their career and it's just really tough. And they thought they were going to reach a certain level of success or whatever it is, or they got fired from their job. These things happen.
This is life, and so how can you be there for them while also making sure that you aren't their therapist?
Totally.
Because you can't be your partner's therapist. So you have to make sure that they are doing the things that they need to do to take care of themselves. While you're also being very supportive through this difficult time that they're having.
So sort of the years that you've spent together with this person allow you to then support them properly in dealing with emotional instability. So, whereas beginning a relationship when one party is emotionally unstable, you know, why is that so much more of a red flag?
Because you've been with the person when they've had emotional stability in that first scenario, so you've seen them. This is what they're like. They're emotionally stable. You know, they have all the things that everybody other humans have.
You know, they have their days, but you know, we all have not our finest moments.
Of course.
But you've seen them, you got to know them. In the context of emotional stability, it's very hard to get to know someone when they're not emotionally stable. How do you really get to know someone? When they're clinically depressed, when they're in the middle of an addiction, when they're very volatile, when they can't self-regulate?
It's hard to get to know them.
It's hard to be with them and get to know them.
Where's the foundation of the relationship? Sometimes people gravitate toward people like that because they feel like I'm saving them, like there's something in them that's unresolved, which is not healthy. And then the person gets better, and then they find that the relationship isn't working because the person who was in the caretaker role doesn't like that.
That person is now strong and they can't be in the caretaker role for that person anymore, you know, it's kind of like when people meet, when they're both in a bad situation and then they connect over that. And then one of them gets healthy and the other one isn't quite there. It's kind of like, this person says, you know, I'm going to really take care of myself, I'm going to start eating, right?
I'm going to start exercising, I'm going to stop drinking so much and the other person's like, Oh, come out, you're no fun anymore. Why don't you like, you know, I'm going to be responsible and get this job?
Oh, you're no fun anymore, you're being, so, you know, like you're not the person that I thought you were. As opposed to this person's getting healthy, they're taking care of themselves, but then the other person has to then look at themselves and say, Oh, now. I can't pretend that all of these behaviors like that. I'm staying out, drinking all the time and that I'm, you know, not taking care of myself. And I'm not really being serious about my career.
Now I have to actually acknowledge that because before I could pretend it wasn't really happening, because I had a partner in crime in that.
Right? It was like the mirror that they were holding up was like, see-through, you know, and so it was like, Oh, all's good. But then, you know, the second that your partner rises to the occasion, it's like, Shit, now I have to rise to the occasion and I don't want to rise to the occasion. I totally can see that.
You know, I think, too, when we talk about emotional stability. I worked with a couple where she had been sexually assaulted and she didn't want to tell her partner. And it created all this weirdness in the relationship because she wasn't telling him and he didn't know why. And it wasn't even in their sexual relationship, it was in their communication where it caused problems. And she had this big. This is a secret. And so finally, I met with each of them individually because I was like, trying to figure out what was happening. And she told me, and she said, but don't tell him.
Right, and I said, we're going to have to figure out a way for you to talk about this and for you to tell him. And when she did, it completely changed the relationship and it brought them so much closer.
Totally.
So she was still dealing with the trauma, and she needed to deal with the trauma, and she wasn't doing that. So she then went to therapy, dealt with her trauma. Didn't bring it into the relationship in the ways that it was being acted out. Was able to be more open with him, he felt now more close to her, and that's what I mean by emotional stability. You've got to work out your stuff or be working on it when you first meet someone, or it's going to show up at some point in the relationship and affect the relationship.
I guess it's almost like you can have your stuff.
Everybody has their stuff.
Because everyone has their stuff.
Yes.
But you just can't, you can't be enabling your stuff. You know what I mean, you got to be actively working on it. Yeah, and I mean, I think you probably know this.
You never figure it out completely, right right? You're always working on it. There's no sort of pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
You're always, you're always on that rainbow, you never, you never get there completely, but you have to always be striving to to get better.
And also, you think you know your partner, but your partner will surprise you.
Oh yeah.
And you will surprise your partner in great ways, too. Where you know, don't assume that you know everything about the other person. And how they think and how they feel about something, or how they will feel about something. I think that's what's exciting about long-term relationships. People think it's going to get boring. No, it's quite the opposite. Because right when you think I know so much about this person, you find out, Oh my god, they're a good artist.
I didn't know that totally, I didn't know that. They used to paint when they were young. And they haven't done it in 20 years, right, you know? Or, oh, I didn't know about this experience from their childhood.
That's fascinating.
Or it's like, you can finally fart.
Yes, finally, yes, yes, and then it's like, Thank God.
And then it's funny, and then it's funny, and then it's funny, and then you're like, this is great, like this is truly being a unit with someone.
Yeah, the second, it's like, it's being vulnerable and it's getting your first fart out, and then that's when it really gets fun. It is so interesting because I feel like a lot of people talk about the honeymoon phase, right? and how the honeymoon phase is the best part.
And-.
Oh, it's the most stressful, too, though.
It is awful. Yes, I hate it. yes, it is.
I will say, it's when your feelings are the most vivid, right? You're so obsessed, but it's fucking torture. It's awful. It's torture and it's terrible. But yet some people are addicted to it.
Yes, they're addicted to that, because that's the dopamine rush. It actually feels like when people say, like, I'm crazy in love or you've gone crazy, you actually have. Because what happens is you get the same stimulus in your brain, the dopamine that you would get from cocaine, chocolate. So it's literally the same neural pathways.
So you're kind of like on a drug, and it's like, when you're not with the person, it's like, Oh my god, I'm having withdrawal. What's happening? You feel like, what does it mean? It's been two hours.
What happened to them? They don't like me anymore, they met someone else.
It's such a nightmare, like thinking about it. I never want to do that again. It's terrible, but yet people do get addicted to that.
Because you're projecting onto them all of these idealized versions of who they are. You don't know who they are yet. And they're projecting onto you all of these idealized versions of who you might be. And it feels really good to have someone think this person's on a pedestal.
Totally.
Right, totally to feel like this person is obsessed with me. They want to be around me all the time, they enjoy me.
They think I'm amazing in every way, that's really, that's a high. Yeah, totally so.
Of course, it feels like you're in this drug-induced stupor with that person, but the problem is, it's not real.
When do you think it's appropriate to start? Sort of combining your lives, like moving in together, getting a dog together, whatever all these things? How do you know?
We just had this couple on the podcast who said we had this whirlwind romance. We moved in within a couple months, we got engaged really fast. At first they were doing long distance and then they moved in because they didn't want to do long distance, but they didn't know each other.
And then all of a sudden it became like, who are these? who is this person? Why I didn't think they were like this.
Yeah.
So I think that sometimes people have this idea in their head, this fantasy of I've met my person and I've met my person. So why should we wait? But I think also what it does is it covers up any cracks that might be there or that you might discover. Because it's like, Oh yeah, we know, we just knew.
And so we just, we're moving in together, we're getting a dog together, we're doing all these things together, we're combining all our friend groups. I think you have to get to know the person.
Because sometimes, or sometimes, people are afraid, like, Oh, I really want this to be my person, but I'm not really sure. So if we do all these things that feel very couple-y together, like we combine all these things, we move in, we're a we. Then that's going to make us become the couple that I hope we'll be.
Right, and I think it requires a level of restraint and self-control as well. It does, which is, you know, challenging, right? It's challenging when you're so in love with somebody and you're like, this is so perfect.
And you also feel this sort of internal rush of like, I also need to find my person because it doesn't matter how old you are, time is always running out, it seems like everybody always feels like I'm running out of time. And so, you know, all of that combined can make it really hard to not get right into it and just be like, let's just do it.
And I think people feel like I don't want to waste a lot of time. Yeah, like you said, nobody wants to waste time with somebody, because then you've got to start all over with someone else. It's almost like, even going to a new therapist, you're like, I went to that therapist. If I have to go to a new therapist, then I have to give them all the background, they have to get to know me. Yes, totally.
Same with a new partner.
Yes.
Like, what kind of pizza do you like? Like, who are you? what's your family like? It's exhausting. What's the name of your siblings?
Yeah, you know all of that, yeah. So people don't want to waste time. But the problem is that when you are impulsive, when you rush, because you don't want to waste time, you will end up wasting more time.
Totally. What will happen is you will then rush into something now you've invested all these other months or years or whatever you've wasted because you rushed into it and it was the wrong thing. Whereas if you had just taken it a little more slowly, if you would just step back and had some more impulse control and got to know the other person a little bit better. Over several more months, or a year, or whatever it is, you would have so much more clarity on whether or not this was the person for you. You wouldn't have wasted all that time going forward with them.
Because now you feel like, well, I've already wasted this time, I might as well keep going.
With them, yeah.
But what you want to do is you want to do that vetting process as it's happening. Without rushing forward and saying, I'm wasting time because you will waste time. I think going through four seasons together is really important. That getting into. You must have some kind of disagreement before you even know who that person is. If you have not disagreed about anything, you don't know each other.
Absolutely. What's your advice for people who are coming out of the honeymoon phase and maybe they have a particular just sort of addiction, maybe even people who really enjoy the honeymoon phase? What would be your advice for that type of person? Coming out of that, transitioning out of that into a more stable, comfortable and maybe even at times kind of boring relationship?
Because, yeah, it can be kind of boring, I guess it can be, because it's just normal.
It's just normal, it's just life. Yep, and so we as humans are addicted to novelty. Novelty is really exciting for us.
Novelty is what the dopamine reaction is. So when things feel like, oh yeah, we're sitting in front of the TV, like having takeout and watching Netflix again. It's fun, but if you do it every single night, it's kind of like, Oh, you adapt, and then it gets boring.
Yeah.
So you want to make sure that you're doing new things individually, as people like, you're trying something new. Like, I've always wanted to learn how to sing or whatever, and you go do that. Or you have your own friends so you can go out and do things with your own friends. So you don't become like, you know, in the beginning of a relationship, you become this little pod with your partner. And you've got to make sure you keep your friendships going and also that you try new things together. Like, Oh, I've always wanted to learn, whatever it is, salsa dancing or bungee jumping, or, you know, things where you actually have to do something.
Yes.
That's really fun.
Once the novelty wears off with the relationship, it's actually a great opportunity to use that energy now to find exciting novelty activities elsewhere. That sort of fill that void, right? I think that's sort of a mistake some people make. Is, you know, the honeymoon phase is over, and they're like, What do I do with my time now?
Right, you know what I mean?
I'm not like, constantly obsessing over this. Now I have all this empty space in my brain, what do I do? And I think that can be really exciting. Because then, you know, if used correctly, you can go in like, now you're free. Being in a long-term relationship can be freedom in a lot of ways, creatively, right?
I mean, it can set you free in some ways.
I think that if you're feeling bored in the relationship, look at yourself first and ask, Have I become boring? Totally? Because often what happens is you've become boring. You've not gone outside of your comfort zone, you stopped trying new things.
You've gotten into a routine where you never do something different. So how can I not be boring? And then your partner also, you know, has to ask, Am I being boring too? So make sure that you're not the culprit, make sure that you're not being boring. And that you are growing and learning and doing fun things. And kind of going outside your comfort zone. And evolving as a human, evolving as a person.
Don't get too comfortable with yourself.
I could talk to you all day, what a pleasure.
Oh well, thank you so much. I'm so glad to have this conversation, it was the best.
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