#1988 - James Reed

How are you, sir? What's going on, man? What an incredible piece of work you put together. I mean, that was, I'm so impressed and I loved it so much.

I mean, I don't even know where to begin.

We should tell her, but it's chimp empire.

So they kind of came knowing there was a big group of chimps out there, but they didn't know anything about how many there were or who they were. And they had to go through this process of habituation, which basically means sort of following them around and getting them used to humans, observing them. So in those early days, the chimps would just run off. They'd have total fear for humans, so they weren't even able to see them, let alone study them, but they gradually overcame that fear. And to the point where the scientists can just arrive with their notebooks and gently follow them around, kind of within the group every day.

So after years of doing that, it makes it possible for a film crew to come in and kind of literally walk in their footsteps. So that process of actually being accepted into the chimpanzees group was sort of. We had this previous scientific project that enabled us to do that. And in terms of for the series, we had like 400 filming days. We knew that we wanted to be sort of observing them in detail and from sort of within the group, and yeah, we were able to do that.

We had a great crew, lightweight equipment and sort of followed them around constantly for about 400 days. Wow.

So you need to be close to the chimps to observe and film them. And also it wouldn't be a good idea to try and creep around and hide from them, they wouldn't like that. So you sort of peacefully, gently, kind of make your presence known and they acknowledge you.

When you turn up, they're certainly sort of checking you out. But then they go about their daily business. And it's incredible how little interaction they have, and how little that they sort of ever even come close to interacting with you. Wow.

If there was some association with food or something that you had that they wanted, so that's really carefully managed. And there's, you know, they don't associate you with food, and they just treat you as a sort of passive observer. Having said that, you know, you're right in there.

And you know, they could be just sitting around peacefully, sort of playing or grooming each other, or they could be doing something quite aggressive.

They could be patrolling for another group or hunting. And then, even though none of it is sort of targeted at you, they are behaving in a way that can be quite intimidating around you.

I mean, I think the most disturbing thing to me with chimps is, well, there's two things one that they murder each other, but two, the hunting of the monkeys.

Watching them hunt and kill and eat monkeys is so weird. I mean, I think, was David Attenborough the first one to capture that on film?

And at that point, nobody knew this happened. And then I think on the David Attenborough project, it was documented as well. But in Ngogo, they're the biggest group ever known, and they are a very strong and powerful group, and there's a lot of males.

And it is often the males that are involved in the hunting, and they have taken hunting monkeys to another level.

What is that like to witness live? Because primates eating primates? I don't know why, but it's just....

You know, because you kind of group, you group primates together, and we're sort of separate in a way, or that's how you think of them anyway. And I think also you spend so much....

You know, if you're interested in chimps or you spend time around them, you're constantly making connections between you and them. So you're feeling, even though it's kind of a one-way thing, you're feeling those similarities all the time and then. But then you see how they behave to other primates.

And it's quite.

It's shocking, you can't believe that. As sophisticated as they are and how connected you feel to them. You know, they don't feel that sort of level of compassion or empathy for other primates at all, and they are, yeah, they hunt them regularly.

Now we didn't keep anything back that we thought was relevant to the story. But there are sometimes other examples, or other hunts. Hunts is a really good example. You know, we didn't put in the series every time they hunted a monkey because it would be a lot of hunting monkeys. We saw it quite a lot, you know, I remember on the second shoot, but it was the first time that a new camera crew had come out.

And I was with one of the camera women, Lauren, and she was a really experienced woman in filming in hostile and remote locations. But had never filmed chimps before and wasn't really used to the environment. And on our first day out, they hunted a big black and white Colobus monkey. And, you know, I mean, it's everything that goes along with it, it's the sort of the cooperation, the teamwork.

You know, there's a tension in the air when you know that they're going to hunt, they've decided to hunt, but it's not on yet. And they're sort of moving around the forest, trying to get in a position where they can successfully catch this monkey. And then once they go for it, and then they're just chasing it, and it's chaos.

And you know, they are organized in a way, they know exactly what they're doing. But you're sort of running around after it and you quite often don't know exactly what's happening. Where's the monkey? where are the chimps? And she was just like, Where am I?

Like, what have I got myself into? But she was absolutely amazing because she sort of, you know, held the shots and a lot of what she filmed that day is in the series, actually. But I don't know the energy when you're there and you're watching it, the energy of the whole thing takes over. And you know, maybe this isn't a good thing. But I think when you have seen it quite a few times and you accept it as part of the natural relationship between these two species, you do become slightly desensitized to it.

And yeah, I remember the first time I saw it being very shocked. But once you've seen it quite a lot and you know it's a natural part of their lives, you, yeah, you don't feel the same way about it, actually.

So they're always moving around this vast territory and sort of checking out what's in fruit and what isn't, and they'll know that something's. Ah, it's not quite ripe yet. But that'll stay there and they'll come back and they'll feed off that tree in the days immediately after. So that's really that's. They have to survive, they depend on fruit.

Monkeys seem to provide a sort of a different purpose in the chimpanzee community. They're definitely valuable from a nutritional point of view, but there seems to be other things going on as to why they hunt. And you know, I'm going to use some of the wrong terms here that scientists probably wouldn't support, but they do seem to enjoy it. It does seem to provide some sort of cooperative function. You know, it's not sport, but at the same time, you know, it's not purely for survival.

It's the something else there, and I think in, you know, when you watch them share meat after they've hunted a monkey. That's when some of its sort of function becomes clear, because who catches the monkey? And then who gets a share of that becomes a really political business. And that feels, you know, from our perspective, watching it.

Because who gets meat and who doesn't has a sort of. It's very political.

Particularly when the female with the baby got some, and the one male that didn't get very upset and attacked her.

Yeah, you know, they're all there trying to get a piece of meat because they want to, but it risks upsetting other chimps.

She made it away with quite a big share of the monkey. And I think, you know, I wasn't there filming that particular moment. But I remember the crew saying when they came back, it did feel like that's trouble. Actually, good for you for getting a share, but actually, that's you're going to get into trouble somehow. But because, you know, whether she was aware that there was somebody who's, you know, a high ranking male was being excluded at the same time, so there was this tension between the males.

And then this was further complicated by a female getting a share, and then he just blew his lid.

And I also worked on another one years previously, so some of that I knew. And in part, that was why we made the series. That we knew there was going to be this level of complexity, but we'd never. And I don't think anyone has ever committed that much sort of filming, resource and dedication to that intense of a period.

So we sort of seemed to be able to record it at a level of detail that I hadn't seen before. And I don't think anybody else has. So that did surprise us, yeah, and it surprised me personally. It's the sense of awareness.

Like, you know, as far as we know, there's quite limited vocal communication with chimps, you know, they make sort of, they make food grunts, which tells other chimps that they're enjoying some food. They make pant grunts, which are a sort of this noise that they make to each other, which is a signal of submission. And they have various calls. But as far as we know, there's not a huge amount of complexity in that.

There's not a lot of language, but the amazing thing is that there seems to be some other level of communication going on. That they somehow know what each other are about to do. In some circumstances, they don't, and they're surprised, and it causes conflict. But I think about, particularly when you watch chimps go on patrol, right?

They patrol their borders, the borders of their territory, and they do that in silence. And they do that for a reason because they don't want anybody outside their territory to know where they are. But how to coordinate that when they're not making any noise to each other at all?

And they're sort of they appear to be reading each other's intentions, and they kind of know, without anybody saying anything, that we're going on patrol. Now. This is it.

You know, they're stumped as well, because there aren't really any signals that this is about to happen. And you know, they'll be lying around or grooming, or doing something completely disconnected. And then one chimp will get up and just start walking off in the direction of the border, and then the others will join. And then, as they start moving closer to the border, the amount they vocalize just goes down and down and down to the point of being completely silent.

And yeah, it's a mystery, there must be something going on there.

And often, you know, maybe it's associated with specific individual chimps, who the other chimps know that those guys are patrol leaders. Years ago, in the early days when the scientists were first there, there was a chimp called Ellington, and he was the patrol leader. When at Go Go was one big group, he never showed any real interest in the dominance hierarchy.

So he never made a play to be Alpha didn't really seem that bothered. He was a high-ranking male, but he was not engaged in that internal, dominant struggle at all, really. But of all the patrols that they witnessed there, Ellington was the one who was present for the most, and quite often leading them.

So he seemed to have this attraction to that behavior, or this ability or desire to go and patrol their borders. More than other chimps, and maybe in some ways, that explains the lack of communication, that they're more that it's actually the very fact of Ellington getting up and moving off for no apparent reason does communicate to the other chimps.

And the sort of modern version of Ellington who was around during our filming period is a chimpanzee called Rollins. Who, similarly, has never shown any real interest to make it to the alpha position. Whilst all the other males are sort of jostling for position there. And you get the feeling that ultimately, they all want to be on that top spot and they'll just get as high as they can. Rollins doesn't seem to have that desire, or certainly it doesn't appear so. But he is the patrol leader, he's always out there in front and taking the Western group on patrols.

And it's very often him. And what was interesting was that his younger brother, who really is just an adolescent. Chimp Damien. He was just kind of coming of age, or just come of age. When we started filming for Chimp Empire, and he really grew into that role during our filming period. He became Rollins sort of second in command during that period.

They look very similar anyway. They're very different ages, actually, they've got the same father, different mother, very different ages, but they look the same. But they don't know that they're brothers.

But for some reason, they have this extremely close connection, and both appear to have a real desire to engage in this territorial behavior.

Like the food grunts, for instance, you know, that's a very, it's a unique sound. And they make it when they're enjoying food, and then the rest of chimps gather and they enjoy the same food. So there's a clear way to observe that and to try and understand what it means.

But patrols are.

Yeah, they've, you know, we know a lot about them through the scientists at NGOGO and through observing them ourselves. But there are mysterious elements to it that nobody understands.

And during our filming period, he just really started becoming a more frequent attendee of these patrols. Now they're dangerous, and most younger chimps won't do that. But yeah, you wonder whether that's where it kind of starts. That you're mimicking the chimpanzees that you want to be friends with and you want to be like. And you know that this is just something you see them do, so you do it with them.

And if you do it regularly enough, exactly that you don't need to communicate that much. You all know each other extremely well, you know, by the way you're walking and the direction you're heading and who's there, what it is you're doing. And yeah, so maybe there's just a lot of that.

And you know, like I say, if they were here today, the scientists from NGOGO, they would be saying the same thing. That we don't know exactly how those patrols are instigated and how the chimps involved know that they're on patrol, we do not know that. So, you know, it leaves your imagination to run wild a little bit.

I mean, I think telepathy is maybe a bit strong, but I mean, who knows, we don't know that it's not happening.

I imagine the personal point of view, there seems to be quite a lot of sort of signaling through eye movement. Again. This isn't supported by the scientific data necessarily, but they're very sensitive to where each other are looking, or at least they appear to be. And I remember one chimp, sadly he's died, although he leaves a lot of offspring at NgOgo, but there was a chimp that featured in a film I made a few years ago at NgoGo.

And his name was Pinsir, and when I first saw shots of Pinsir, I felt this like something different about this chimp. And I don't know what it is. And in hindsight, I can't really believe that. I couldn't spot it, but there was something that just seemed very human about him.

And I started looking more closely, and I realized Pinsir had sort of a completely white sclera. Like you and I, right? So, you know, when I look over like that, you know exactly where I'm looking. And that's a very. It's an important part of human cooperation.

We follow each other's gaze, and therefore, you know what it is I'm interested in, or maybe what I'm about to do. But in chimps, I was reading about around it after I saw this chimp, pinsir with his white sclera whites of the eyes. And officially, chimps don't have this characteristic they're supposed to all have, like Brown.

Where we have whites of the eyes, they have brown, so the difference in color between the iris and here is less similar. There we are.

Okay, I mean, that's, I mean, it's a good one. That's not even the best sort of picture of Pinsir, and obviously you can see a bit of discoloration. Like, you know, they look like quite unhealthy whites of the eyes there.

But he has a very defined difference between his iris and whites of the eyes. So with Pinsir, even at a distance, you can see where he's looking, and that may not seem like much. But in a species where we don't fully understand their communication, or they appear to be doing things without any vocalizations. I wondered, like, You know how come Pinsir's got this? and what impact does it have? I talked to, you know, there are other examples, actually.

And there was a chimp in Gombe. I think he was called Mr. Wurzel, who had a very good example of whites of the eyes as well. But we started looking into it at NGOGo and I started talking to the scientists about it.

And they were like, Well, yeah, Pinsir does have whites of the eyes. We've, you know, we've never really thought about it that much, and it's not that they didn't notice. But as filmmakers, with our lenses and things we're actually getting, we're often looking at the chimps in a level of detail that the scientists don't see every day. So in a way, we're sort of providing them with some sort of visual data that was of interest. And actually, they did a proper study on it at NGOGo and tried to find how many chimps at NgoGo had this sort of whites of the eyes.

And they found, like, I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was quite a reasonable percentage of it. You know, Pinsir's a great example, but had some version of that. They don't know why this is. But in my sort of excited sort of way, I was thinking, Well, here's the biggest group of chimps ever known. They cooperate on levels that you don't see regularly in other chimpanzee groups.

You know, they're on these territorial boundary patrols all the time, they hunt all the time. They're very successful on a cooperative level, and they appear to be doing these things in silence. What role do these whites of the eyes play?

And, you know, anecdotally, the scientists kind of agreed that there was, you know, there's a possibility that it does play some role. Like, I say, you know, they're scientists, you know, so it's different, they need the data to support that. But there was, you know? What's interesting about Pinsir is that, even though he never made it to the top either. But he fathered a huge number of offspring and he was always there on these cooperative behaviors. So if there's a hunt going on, Pinsir's around.

So this was like, I say, this is just. It was just my hypothesis from a non-scientific point of view. But I thought he played a sort of disproportionate role in sort of cooperative behaviors. But again, it's just it's an area they know an absolute ton about, the chimps in Gogo, it is incredible. From behavior, genetics, everything.

They've studied that group of chimps very thoroughly, but there is still a lot they don't know.

And this could help, and it could actually change. But no, they didn't find that actually. So, you know, for instance, Rollins, who's the patrol leader in the West, that's Pinsir's son, and he doesn't have that. He's got incredible eyes, actually.

They're very piercing, but he doesn't have the same eyes.

So a non-trivial percentage that sounds very sciency, but it means that, you know, it was a significant percentage enough to take note of. And that's as far as the studies got. I don't really understand the impact of that, if it has any impact at all, you know, it could just be random variation. And because Ngogo is such a huge group.

You know, you would expect to see more variety and more incidences of things that occur on low levels. So they still really don't understand the role of that. But it was interesting to me on two levels. I thought it was fascinating because it made me just wonder about what's going on behind those eyes. But also as a human, you just engage with Pinsir in this, you know? It's like, suddenly there's a part of his face that feels a lot more familiar.

I remember one of the scientists there who was there years ago when I was there, Kevin Potts. And like, I say, they'd say different things around the fire at night as to what they'd say in the scientific papers. I remember Kevin going, Oh, I'm totally with you on Pinsir, and he said, Honestly, someday I'll be out there following Pinsir around. And he's just sitting there close to me and I just think, God, any minute, he's going to just turn around and say, What are you doing, Kevin?

I mean, look at those eyes, that's wild. He's so unusual, He was remarkable. I mean, that's Kevin Langegraber, one of the scientists from NGOGo.

Yeah, I mean, everybody loved Pinsir and everybody was very, very engaged with him. But even at a distance, you see what's he thinking, what is he about to do?

And you have to wonder, it makes us think that so are the other chimps reading anything from that?

I mean, as we said, it's a small portion of them and they've done no specific study on it, but Pinsir was the best example.

He appeared to be more involved in the cooperative behaviors than your average chimp. That's what the scientists in Ngogo were saying. When there's a hunt, Pinsir's there, when there's a patrol, he's there. But chimps without white sclera would be doing that as well.

The interesting thing about Pinsir was how many offspring he had. He was actually a low-ranking male his whole life, and he had the same number of offspring as the alpha male at the time. So he is an alpha male that's dedicated his entire life to knocking off other guys on his way to the top. And all the stress associated with being an Alpha male at NGOGo. And ultimately, it's all about having kids.

And he had fewer kids than Pinsir, who had just hung out at number 18, number 19, shying away from fights, but was very successful. But those things could be completely unrelated, because Pinsir was also fascinating in that. He had a different sort of strategy with females as well, he spent a lot of time with females. In ways that some of the higher-ranking males didn't. So they would wait until the female, they wouldn't really spend much time with the females, concentrate on their male relationships.

And then, when the females were in a reproductive state, an estrus, then they'd go, all right, OK, now it's time. And use their position to gain access to her. Pinsir played the more sort of girlfriend-type game. He'd spend a lot of time with females, even when they weren't reproductively in that state. So it wasn't for immediate benefits, but he spent a lot of time, he put the hours in.

And yeah, the Ugandan field trackers. They used to love Pinsir, and they used to describe these different female chimps and Pinsir's wives. Depending on how much time he spent with them. But he spent a lot of time with females. So who knows anything to do with the whites of the eyes? He was just a fascinating chimp and he did things in a bit of a different way to what your average male chimp is expected to do.

But yeah, in the scientific world, we don't have that proof, that data to support it. But, like I said privately, everybody adored Pinsir and was fascinated by him and knew it was something different.

My whole life, I think they're so interesting, they're so close to us. I mean, and you know, at one point in time, we were sort of in the same group of hominids and something happened to us and they sort of remained the same. And it's just, I think, out of all the animals that human beings have ever studied, none of them are as fascinating as chimpanzees. Because of our direct connection to them, our close relation to them.

And I think, you know, that is what makes them so fascinating. If they were really, really similar, then, you know, it would be too similar. The intrigue is sort of, where does that similarity end and the differences begin? And I think that's a very sort of personal experience watching Chimps. I think that's why people find it so cool as well.

You relate to different qualities in them as a species or different individuals.

I hope that's what we did for Chimp Empire because we tried to pick a real range of perspectives.

And because they are complex creatures, they are all different. And you know, you can say chimpanzees are like this, or chimpanzees are like that, or a chimpanzee of this age does this or that? And some of these generalisms are true and are useful.

That sort of individual variation, that difference in personality from chimp to chimp. That really affects what happens to them and what they do and who they have relationships with. That's what's really fascinating, and I think, as a human, just, yeah, you gravitate towards different qualities and different Chimp characters.

And then they'd come out and leave the forest, leave Uganda, come back home, get their lives in order, have some rest, and then they'd come out for another two months. When the second team was finished. So the tag team, the camera crew, I was not out nearly as often as the camera crew. So I personally would go out at the start of the shoots and help set up with the camera teams. And introduce them to what we were trying to do and the characters we were following and how we wanted to film them. At the same time, it's a real sort of observational documentary.

So my role in it was to try and give them a good sense of the overall approach that we were taking. The dedication that we wanted to film specific characters day after day, after day, and that only after filming them. In that sort of level of commitment are we going to really get a sense of who they are. And that involves filming chimps when they're not doing stuff, that's very interesting. I remember early days Gus, who's one of my favourite chimps, the anti-social adolescent.

I just thought he was going to be an interesting character from the start. But the camera team who were sort of tasked with following him for miles and hours and hours.

Said, You know, I don't know about this Gus guy, he doesn't do a lot and he's often on his own. And they'd be hearing all this commotion over this other part of the forest. And as a camera person, it's like, I'm filming the guy who doesn't do anything. Where's Jackson? How can you hear Jackson kicking off?

And they're jealous of the people who had the more immediately exciting targets. But that was what we had to do to bring that diversity of characters to life.

Some characters won't do a lot on a day-to-day basis, but then when they do, you're fully invested in them and you're with them. And it was his inactivity that was kind of Gus story, actually. He was often on his own, which meant he wasn't doing a lot because he's just him in the trees.

But then when he came out of that sort of isolation and tried to groom someone desperately trying to make a friend, you were with him. You know, you're like, Oh, this guy's coming to the group, maybe he's going to, maybe someone's going to groom him back. So it was, yeah, it was important to follow that that range of characters, but it would be being sort of immersed for for that long.

You know, it's incredible experience and I think the for everybody involved in it, that was part of it. You're living. You literally live within the Ngogo chimpanzee territory because the the scientific study has a camp so like this small like island in in the middle of the Ngogo territory. So there, you know, it's completely pristine rainforest in every direction, but there's a little clearing and it's been there for decades.

And there's a selection of sort of tents and little log cabins, very low impact and small. But that's where the scientists and the Ugandan field trackers appear, when, when they go out there, and we stayed there. But being immersed in it, even at nighttime, you know where you can hear the sounds of the forest, and you know the chimps are out there. Sleeping not that far from you. That really helps with engaging in in their lives. Actually, had we been able to, sort of, like, nip in and out and stay in a hotel outside? You know, everybody wanted, you know you. You miss the comforts a lot, you know, when you do get out, you love it. But it was an important part of the process to be properly immersed and to live in the forest and it, it just. It helped you sort of feel what they feel a little bit.

But we we managed to film a lot more than I ever expected. So the the schedule and the technical workflow, you know, batteries charging, how you offload all the footage each day, the the Dailies. All of that stuff was sort of based on an assumption that we wouldn't, you know, we wouldn't have the level of access that we actually had. And the team was so good. Um, and the the cameras, that evolved quite a lot since I was filming Chimps, even a few years previously.

So we got an enormous amount of footage, you know? It's also just working with a team of scientists who just totally believed in it. And and and enabled us to get that level of access. Helped us predict what was going to happen, where they were going to go. So we were just, yeah, we filmed a lot more than I ever expected. Um, and yeah, condensing that down, um, and simplifying it into a four part series was was a huge challenge. Like I said, from from the beginning, we we were totally disciplined about certain things, you know? However, it turned out we were going to tell the story that unfolded over that 18 months. Um, you know, we the just. There's not the option to to make things up or or create stories.

That didn't happen, um, and so so we were.

Our challenge was going to be, well, well, what don't, what? What do we not use, basically? So we filmed a lot more than we ever needed, and we did that in terms of range of characters as well. There were, there are whole character storylines that we filmed that didn't make it in, so that's where we were.

That's where our editing process and our sort of, um, the creative approach to it was the. We're going to able to make these really dramatic and accessible stories by by emission, by what we don't have in, um, but that process is sort of like a sculpting process. You sort of come back with a with a hundred hours worth of footage off one shoot, and we did six shoots. And then you sort of go through that and just gradually sculpt it down to to the characters and the moments in those character stories, that.

That's interesting or reflect what really happened?

Yeah, we had two generators, uh, we try to use them as infrequently as possible, because even though they were quiet for a generator. But you still, you don't want to be chugging and away and using up fuel in a sort of low impact situation there. But we did need a bit of power. But we always able to, you know, offload cards and charge batteries and then we're ready for the next day. And then you have to do it again and again, and again.

Please, please, so, yeah. And we went through loads of sort of working out how, how we're going to, how do we make sense of this?

When? Not from day one when he was there, but very early, from when he first went to see the chimps. In the early nineties, he carried around tiny little palm camcorder, mini DV tapes or something at the time. And he's had various versions over the years as they've got a bit more modern. But you know, something that's about 400 grams that he could just stick in his backpack with a with a bottle of water? Over the years, he's filmed things that no film crew has ever managed to get, um, like a scientist, it's video data for him, you know, he's not filming it for, you know, it's not a 4K Netflix production. But he's just filmed moments in their lives that that have just been impossible for film crews carrying enormous equipment, very heavy tripods.

So they're stable in the forest. Giant long lenses, you know. Traditionally, film crews have only really managed to capture small parts of their lives.

He was filming these incredible things regularly, just felt like he had this, this amazing access. And I remember thinking, if we can find some sweet, some version of that where we have the same level of access that David has. But with cameras with new technology, that will deliver for a sort of 4K Netflix production, you know, so in the in the end, I mean, if I had the camera on the table now, you'll be like, Well, that doesn't, doesn't look very small. And it was, you know, in the camera, crew would be like, Well, they were quite heavy, actually, and you had to carry them around in backpacks, but they were. They were significantly lighter and easier to use than than things that would normally be used on those sorts of shoots, so that made an enormous difference.

And I think that, but in a way that's related to this huge volume of footage. So we sort of came up with this fantastic set up with the cameras. But it allowed these camera people who fit as well. And just like super keen to just film all sorts of things that we we didn't expect to get then we have this huge challenge where we've got volumes of footage, the you know, often with things that you kind of, you know. You might film a grooming scene for sort of two hours, and then in the end, you only want to use a few shots of it.

You know, you're still representing what happened there, but you've got this huge volume of stuff to cut out. So, yeah, long months before we ever went there. We're trying to work out how are we going to organize this stuff. And we need to organize it like when it's fresh. Because we need to know who's in that shot. We can't just end up in the edit with like, 300 hours of like, Who's that chimp again? Oh, I think that's Carter.

Oh, yeah, you know, you just can't do any of that stuff. So I imagine, like, I imagine reality series to do a similar thing. Actually, this sort of observational docs. We just filming a ton of people all the time or CCTV style stuff. But for us, we, yeah. We needed to straight away back up the footage and then assess what we had.

And every single shot needs to be logged with which chimps are in that shot, what are they doing, what are the conditions? And then there's all the data about that's built into it.

That says when it was.

And, in some case, GPS information, so all of that went into every single shot. So at the end of it, we've got this enormous library and this cool bit of software where you can go like, I'm pretty sure I know the story beats that we've recorded with GUS. But let's just type in Gus and bring up every shot of Gus that we got over the year and it would go. And then that's Gus, everything that we've got of Gus. And so, you know, we had to once. We knew the characters that we that we wanted to be viewing this story through we. We were able to sort of concentrate on them. And and and sort of build out of the narrative that we that we filmed there.

Yeah, build, build their storylines in in in parallel to the storylines with the group.

It's a digital zoom, so you're not using as much of the sensor. So, although they are extremely impressive, and when you're in a situation with loads of light, the images look. You know, you can blow them up on a screen like that, and they look good, but they they don't actually compare to sort of professional cameras in in that type of situation.

You know, you'd certainly they. They will be recording at a level that you wouldn't have been able to before. I still think we our compromise was to try and get the highest quality possible whilst getting that access. So, like I say, if I actually got the camera out now, you'd be going like, Well, it looks like a. That looks like a pretty big deal, you know? It's bigger than it's bigger than these cameras, for instance.

But but it was still relatively small compared to most sort of nature show setups.

You only actually need a small amount of that. So there's a phase of it where you sort of just reduce it down to everything that you think, boil it right down. This was the story that we recorded in its most representative chunks.

And that really helps you get it right down to a manageable level. And then and then looking at that and thinking, Okay, well, how's this going? How are we going to divide up these, this, this, this narrative across four, four episodes? And and there's obviously that's where we had quite a lot of choice. It's a the story unfolded in in a particular way. But we we could choose when to introduce the different groups, and we could choose how much to expand certain parts of the story, and then how much to. To sort of compress times during that, that narrative that we, that we recorded.

So there are quite a lot of creative choices there, like I say, the.

The stories at the end, that that, that's what happened. But there's a whole load of bits that we sort of, you know, compressed. Because you didn't necessarily need to see this this period between that and that and it, and it wasn't, it wasn't relevant for the story. But yeah, editing, so a lot of work done before the edit. Because you can't, you know, you couldn't have expected any editors to come in and just go, well, you know, there's, there's. The rushes make us, make us a good opening show. Um, so loads of work done before the editors got on board, um, but then, yeah, four different editors, about 20 weeks per episode.

Wow, um.

Yeah, so what's that? like, five months or something, but but you know that that sounds like a really long time, and it is, but you?

You have to share a car with, in this case, Netflix, about halfway through that process. So actually, you know, you know, putting together, um, I show that really, that really works and and and illustrates the story that you've captured in a in a dramatic way. Um, yeah, it takes quite a lot of work. And that needs to be. That needs to be representative of where you're going by the time you first show it.

I used to like it more when I was younger and and fitter. Actually. Like, it's it's getting hard, it's harder. I mean, I'm not. It's not like I'm an old man or anything. But like, the the camera crews are younger and fitter than I am, and um, and lighter. Um. But the edit is, you know, that's I I. I love that part of the process.

And you know, you can, really, things can be, you know, you can edit shows in a lot of different ways. And the sort of style and tone, and and the music and things, a lot of, the sort of, a lot of the. The overall feel of the series starts to come, come to life. So, and I think we we had fantastic editor Sam Rogers, who I've I've worked with a few times before, and he was. He did the first episode and he did a really, really good job, great instincts for it, and we were very well prepared. And we, you know, initially, we didn't do any sort of narration on it because we wanted to sort of do a test of like, how much can you fall? How much are you going to just engage with these chimps?

Um, and not be told what's happening or what might be about to happen, or what that means. Just let's just do it without any commentary at all to start with. And and it was a fantastic exercise. Because then we showed Sarah Netflix that that first car and I, everyone loved it. And you could follow it. And you were just like, Well, right in there.

And, you know, in a way, I, I sort of, in some ways I missed that first version because it was kind of it was an odd experience. Just sort of like, no, just. We are just going to be following the chimps and the edit, and the music and the sound is going to sort of tell us what's happening here. Um, you might've liked that, cause it was a sort of, very, sort of just direct experience with the chimps.

And I think that, you know, yeah, there are other voices we could have had on it. That I may have sort of regretted, and that may have taken something away from that. And I think that that was, yeah, for me, that sort of confirmed the yeah, we, we. We lucked out with Mahershala and he was fantastic. Because it gave it something else, it gave it, uh, an extra sort of conceptual layer that I think really, really helps.

Like, stylistically, um, there's whole sections that you could follow, actually without any narration, but then that becomes quite an unusual experience. If you're just like, you go like 20 minutes without hearing a word, and then and then Mahershala pops up. Because they're actually, you need some. You need to know something here about what's at stake, you know? And that's often how we sort of tried to shape the the narration was sort of on a need to know basis. Um, you know, I think we, you know, because the voice really worked. We sort of decide to use it a little bit more, but our initial approach was, well. I think it's in situations, you know, for instance, Gus, going to groom Abrams or whatever you need to know what's at stake there.

You need to know that he doesn't, he doesn't actually have any grooming partners, and that this is, you know, this sort of opportunity with a chimp like Abrams could could change his situation. And you could, you know, partly you could follow that visually, but I think it, it really. It helped sort of really solidifying some of those thoughts.

That was that was really at the end of our final shoot. So the footage that we have is sort of supporting material for everything that's sort of out there.

But I mean, you know, the story still continues in Go go. Um, you know, things are still going on there and still changing.

They they are often texting things that are happening now that they know would be interested in.

Yeah, it's obviously anecdotally, from people that I know, I mean, so many people recommended it. Before I watched it, I got so many text messages like, you must watch this, this is right up your alley.

So many people told me about it.

I can't resist or refresh that and see what people are saying about it. And really, um, yeah, I'm I'm really excited about the feedback, um.

Cause you're following that story, whether you film it or not. And I think we'll always be on a sort of like, you know, we want to find out. Is Abrams in charge, you know? Um, yeah, there's things that are happening that we're constantly being updated about. I think we, we, we'd love to go into a second season, but I think that's, you know.

You know, there's, there's many of them. What's unique about Go-Go is as well as having that level of access and and data and sort of. So you just have so much information about the chimps, but there's also just a ton of chimps, and and they are quite unique in that. The go-Go territory is surrounded by forest in every direction, whereas other sites often. You know, chimpanzee habitat is sort of bordered by farmland or human settlements of some kind, so they're quite sort of. It's a little wild pocket in amongst an area that is less wild at Go-Go and I, and I think this is unique for study sites of chimps.

They have, it's wild in every direction outside of there. So so that does impact their their behavior and their sort of group dynamics, because the edge of their territory is not. Like some land they can't go on, it's land they can take because it belongs to other chimps. And so, and you know, whether you, whether you enjoy watching that aspect of chimpanzee behavior or not. There's a there's another layer to what to what happens at Go-Go, you know, loads of other chimpanzee sites.

Would they have different things that they do, you know, for instance, in in in Fongoli, in Senegal, they use spears to hunt bush babies. You know, there's sort of there's in every little, in every different chimpanzee site. There's like a an associated, unique behavior, or or culture. Scientists wouldn't call it culture. But, you know, a simple way of looking at it. There's different, like sort of things that they do that are that are separate and different to other chimpanzees.

Uh, and and she, she'll be able to answer that better. But I, I know that they use, they use spears, and I think they make spears, so I don't know whether they sharpen them. But they, they certainly strip them down so that they are like a spear. Wow, and they and they jab in holes for for bush babies.

Wow, it's quite cool, isn't it?

Um, and it's interesting that maybe you've just never, you know? Tools are a solution to a problem for the chimps that identify that they need something, and that tool will help get it. And it feels that ngogo that actually they're not, they've not really had that need, hmm.

That is the identifying, um, or the defining quality of the NGOGO group. It's the sheer popular, the population size, they're just a massive group, um. And maybe as a function of that. There's levels of cooperative behavior there that they they achieve, those getting the things that they want through cooperation rather than tool use.

It's hard, you know, I. I feel I've been desensitized to it a little bit. So, you know, obviously don't go. Yes, they've got that monkey, no, but, but you accept it, and you, yeah, you don't. I think if you're following the NGO, NGO chimps you, you're sort of like, on some level, you're kind of with them, really.

And therefore, you know, you're not, you're not, like I said, you're not rooting for them. You know, you don't really want them to do that, but you totally accept that they do. But you know, in previous years, the there used to be a lot more monkeys there. So the the chimps are actually having a a probably negative, a properly negative impact on the numbers of the monkeys.

And in and in a way, them attempting to hunt something and failing is is also an interesting story.

Try and get out right on the tips of the branches, which are, you know, they won't, they won't hold the chimps white, so that's the safe. But but then, but then. It's quite a precarious position, because where do you go from there? You're just kind of delaying things, really. Oh.

It's hard, cause the, you know, those monkeys are, they're complex creatures as well. Yeah, and I think, you know, if we were, we were focusing on them a lot, we'd start to engage with them as individuals. And, you know it would, it would feel different.

And it's important to remember that. But, you know, the purpose of this series was we wanted to experience what it was like to be in and go go chimpanzee. And from their perspective.

No, not, I mean, not really other other than, like I said, there are sort of stages to it where you know it's not. They'll just suddenly start hunting, they'll. There'll be a process where one of the chimps might hear some monkeys, or they might've gone looking for them in a particular area. And there's, there's different stages where they kind of know there's monkeys in the area. And they're sort of feeling their way around and then maybe they've heard a call and they're sort of making their way gradually over there. And then when they identify an opportunity, right? Okay, there is. There's a group of monkeys here and they're up in that tree.

And then they can often be very quiet, a bit like being on patrol at that point, where you know. They're just kind of getting as close as they can. And in positions where they can be most effective, without making any noise and without scaring anything off. Um, and then generally it sort of takes just one chimp to just go for it, and then and then the chase is on. So there's no element of surprise or anything, it's a rush.

And they're trying to corner the monkey, or monkeys, um, in positions in the trees where they can get to them.

Um, in my experience, um, the didn't seem to be that sort of pattern of behavior. It was, it was not. It was not as organized as that actually. When it came to to those parts of the hunt, also, it's it's very difficult thing to observe and and to film. So you really, having said we're, we're getting amazing details of their lives. And um, but there were some activities that they do, like a hunt. Where really you're? I mean, you're looking through windows, in in the canopy, and just you see a chimp leg across there.

Over there and then suddenly someone's got the monkey and making sense of that, you know, I think scientifically it's really hard, but from filmmaking point of view, you're, you're capturing moments and and you can piece together what's happened there. But there's definitely things that haven't that you haven't seen, that have gone on behind trees or leaves. Or so, I think it's hard, it's hard to kind of know exactly how they do it.

Weirdly, and it does. I've been looking for it and I've not really heard one that that works for me. That, oddly, apart from sort of acknowledging you.

They just don't seem to be impacted by your presence at all, they pretty much ignore you. And, like chimpanzees, are so like, spatially aware, like they, they. They live in this three dimensional forest world, where they can just go from tree to tree, horizontal, vertical. They just they're very aware of everything that's around them. You would assume in these chaotic moments that you know you might get in one's way or run into, and it never happens.

And it's as if, but, but then again, you never see a chimpanzee run into a tree either. You know, they, they know where everything is, and for some bizarre reason, they're. They're totally accepting of this sort of passive presence in the forest. These strange bipedal creatures that sort of follow and are close and sort of within observing them. And it's not like they, you know, they acknowledge, they acknowledge you.

They know you're there, they're not just like, like I said earlier, you're not spying on them. You're you're kind of part of it, but they're not interested in you.

I mean, it must be so weird. You're there when they get up, you know, and you follow them around all day, and you know when they take a shit. When they making friends with somebody, when they're doing anything that they're doing, you know, and you're just you're there. But they they appear not to mind at all, and it doesn't appear to impact their behavior at all.

Naturally very worried, but actually in place already, there was were. Um, you know, you have to wear masks, you can't go closer than seven meters, you, you have, you know.

You can't do anything like that. You mustn't go and see the chimps, um, and that's important, because, yeah, chimps, a common cold, can be lethal to chimps, um.

So, yeah, so so. For that reason, you have to stay seven meters away from them in the forest.

Yeah, it's not a lot. So how far is that?

And you know, if they come a little closer or come to sit down, sort of, you know, within that seven meters, you, you move back slowly, but you don't, you don't. You know, it's not advisable to sort of jump out of the way. Or, you know, you take your opportunity and you slowly, um, get that distance between you back. So, but yeah, it doesn't feel like a lot at all, particularly if there are chimps in in every direction.

It can be big, it can be a lot, you can be in the middle of quite a an amazing thing. And like, I said, you know, I mean, and I know, you know. The excite, or some of the most dramatic parts of chimpanzee life in Gogo. Um, you know, is the the patrolling and and a lot of the slightly more aggressive elements. But, you know, most of the Chimps day is spent doing things that are just really enjoyable to be around, you know, when they're watching Chimps. Groom is one of the most sort of like, relaxing, like you're, I mean, it looks so relaxing.

It's kind of like it has quite a soporific effect on you. Like, if you're in amongst a group of chimps and they're all sort of gently grooming each other, you feel very sleepy. It's quite odd watching it. It just looks so, um, you know, it's very gentle. You know? These huge males who are capable of all sorts of things very tenderly, sort of groom each other. Or younger members of the group or the females?

And like it really, it looks so gentle. They're just going finally going through each of the hairs there and just really checking if there's anything worth coming out. And they just they often sort of fall asleep or look very relaxed, and it's a. Those moments are kind of amazing actually, because you sort of let they really make you relaxed. And then the few kids will be playing around.

You know, they're not interested in long grooming sessions, so they're just tumbling around in the trees and things. And that's the majority of chimp life, actually. And what's so interesting about them, because it's such a far cry and such huge difference between the more aggressive side of chimpanzees.

But yeah, that's what makes them so fascinating, that situation. They can be like that in the morning and you can feel like you've just stumbled into this, this sort of paradise situation. Everything's so delicate and it's so tender and and playful. But then by, you know, come the afternoon, you know, they've got a job to do at the border and and it's completely different atmosphere and it's tense and same thing. Your sort of heart rate is raised, and you know, you kind of your state is determined a lot by what the chimps are doing.

So yeah, they are looking for specific things, but then if you watch what they're doing and how they do it. And particularly with our real sort of closeup lenses, you can see in great detail, you know, you can see the hairs parting. And exactly what they're going for. Um, I don't know. It feels like, yes, that's an important part of it, but actually, the but they're kind of stroking each other. And how long you do it for? Um, and then when you turn around and and do it back, all those things feel like they're much greater social value than so. You know, there's partly a cleaning each other, keeping each other healthy, that's definitely important.

And I think, you know, they have to do it for that reason, but there's so many other layers to that.

Yeah.

And he's always been very comfortable near human chimps, like they have that a little bit of. It's a tiny bit of residual fear of humans. And I think that's what makes them quite comfortable with that distance as well. They're like, they're okay if you come there, but they, they actually don't want to be any closer they. That seven to 10 meter rule suits them too generally.

That's that's a comfortable distance, but you know, I don't want you. It's as if the chimps like, they don't really want you coming sitting next to them, that's not okay. So, and I don't know whether that's just like what they like or whether they're used to it. Because over the years, that is the distance that scientists have kept or whatever. But you do get some chimps that decide to to come closer, yeah.

And Rich Burgle is one of those chimps he orphaned at a young age, very well habituated.

Whatsoever, um, you know, he's never made contact, but I think everybody who works with him, uh, would say, you know, he's the one that will come and sit a little closer and or we'll walk towards you. And then, at the very last minute, they're off. And he's just kind of curious in a way that, um, that the others aren't.

The intense and aggressive moment, and it's so wild to watch, to see them. These hulking chimpanzees move through the forest in coordination. When you're there with that, and you're very close to these violent encounters with the other chimps. Is there any concern there that you could get caught up in this sort of violent frenzy and maybe be in danger of being attacked?

So we ask exactly the same question, so this is, you know, I've been through the exact same process as you are now and have this conversation with.

Right, you know, is it safe for us to where should we be, or where should we not be if this happens when we're there? So totally, we had exactly the same questions and we just didn't know, and we were reassured by the scientists. You know, you'll, you'll be amazed.

Like, if you see those things, they will happen, but they will ignore you. And their only warning was that definitely don't get too close. You know the because the level of excitement around the chimps during these encounters. You know if there's ever a time when they could accidentally come very close to you or suddenly see you and get a bit of a fright? You know, they wouldn't want, they wouldn't want to take that sort of a risk with us, so they did, they did.

We were warned, you know, keep a respectful distance from that.

But amazingly, and there's a little, um, a little behind the scenes clip that we've sort of released on on YouTube now. And you can see that during during the the the biggest encounter that we filmed, um.

The the camera people were sort of like in it and around it, and sort of at one stage, sort of like accidentally between the two groups. Standing off. And you know that the certain way, I mean, the chimps move so fast and they organize, reorganize, separate or whatever. So you can try and be in the perfect position. But then that perfect position could quickly become where you don't want to be. Because of where the chimps have gone. So, through no fault of their own, um, you know, there's there are times when they're sort of, they're in there, sort of. It's a bit like being a war reporter or something.

Um, but weirdly, you know, they're so focused on what it is they're doing and have no interest in sort of involving or redirecting their aggression to to the humans at all. I think, you know, because of, you know, their high profile and sort of, like, pretty tragic sort of human chimp interactions aren't there.

And and they don't are engaged in these sort of violent competitions with other groups. That's a very real thing. And and, and, you know, and it can get serious. But their relationship with people is just completely different to a relationship chimps might have with people in captivity, or if they've been kept as pets or something. Um.

Yeah, it's just it's not I. I totally get it. And those are exactly the sort of things I wanted to know before I stepped in. NGOGO Well, I mean, you know you, you, you need to know, um, but amazingly, when you've been there around it and even once. You've just been on a single patrol with them actually, and they are exhilarating. When you go on patrol with Ngogo chimps, it's amazing. They are taking you on a on a journey to the edge of their border, and they fully committed and they're coordinated. And and we don't seem to care that you're following and they're allowing you to sort of be there.

They're nervous. I think that you can read into that, that they're sort of telling each other that like, I'm with you, I'm here. That physical contact is just, you know, it's just reassuring each other that we're, we're in this together. Um, it's you and me.

Violence is is a lot harder, um, to watch, um, than the Chimp on Monkey violence. For me personally, and whether I'm there myself or whether I'm seeing it recorded later on, I think there's a there's kind of a sadness to that. Okay, um, quite often. It's because, in truth, the it gets more serious. If the chimps outnumber them significantly, so when? when chimps are kind of equal sized groups. When they come into contact, they usually less violent situations.

I've seen it a few times, but if there's enough chimps on either side, you can pretty much know that. In this immediate situation, no one's going to get badly hurt. Uh, they get badly hurt when they're outnumbered. And obviously that on a human level, it just no one likes seeing that sort of thing. Yeah, you know, there's, there's just, uh, yeah, that that it's just horrible.

And and it, you know.

Unfortunately, we've all sort of seen that personally or clips of that in humans, and it's the most uncomfortable, horrible stuff. It really makes you horrible, um.

So, yeah, all of that stuff is very hard to watch.

It's not an emotional thing. But even even they who have been there for many years, particularly because they've been there for many years. Sometimes you see an act of violence on a on a chimp that you've known and been following around for ages. They may not care about you, but you really care about them, and and it's sad.

Yeah, it's very sad.

Um, we're not going to talk about, but like, cause that really is a spoiler. But um, yes, couple of occasions whilst we were there.

You don't want any negative impact, you actually can't make a too much of a positive impact either, you know? Also, it just wouldn't be practical. It's not, it's not safe, you know, you know, what could you do?

Shout and make a noise and trying to disturb them just enough. For a moment, the the the gym could get away. And you know, possibly I think the it wouldn't be, you know, it wouldn't be ethical to do it. The these, uh, it is natural behavior, I mean, that's my take on it from what I've seen. Uh uh, and go, uh, these. This is part of their natural behavior.

They are competitive and their territorial, and those, you know, those babies have served them well in in the past. So you can't, as much as it's not, from a human observer point of view. That same thing, taking that same situation out as something you observed in the street. All those natural sort of tendency desires to intervene and stop something. You know, they're there for good reason. Um, but you know, this is the the entire sort of the entire scientific project. Our commitment as filmmakers to observe but not interfere. I mean, that's that's all part of the same thing. You couldn't be stepped out of that role in any circumstance.

You've, kind of, you've, you've crossed the line in a really odd way, um, but so, so. And in a way that sort of helps with the what you're feeling when you see or observe those things. Because we, you know, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

I do feel within Gogo Chimps in particular, like you say, as a human being, from an existential sort of point of view. There's like, So, I'm so fortunate. And not really not many people get to see that. And they are our closest relatives, and they are fascinating because of the connections we have with them, They're also fascinating because they're different and they're all individuals. And and it's a chance to just you kind of feel a part of something that has, you know, brought that important knowledge and information. Um, yeah.

So I I feel personally very fortunate.

Um, so yeah, I'm always thinking about what, what, what could be, you know, what could move things on? I think making a series about the Ngogo chimps it is quite hard because they feel that they aren't for all the reasons. We just said they are our closest relatives, they are the biggest group in terms of sort of story and character, which I think is probably, you know, I mean, you're, you're a chimp now, and you love like all bits of it, and you're. You're fascinated on levels that a lot of people maybe don't appreciate. So I think you, you get the whole whole thing, but I think, what, um, potentially what the broader audience is sort of, you know, really responding to is is the characters and the stories. You know, there are the real chimpanzee characters that through the whole series, and and that is hard, certainly harder to do with other animal species.

You know, there's so much going on there in terms of individual variation, and you know, chimps psychology, you know. You're always just wondering, are they thinking, what are they going to do? What's he making of that? What does she want now? You know, they invite that level of intrigue.

And that depth and a depth of character, the genuinely different characters who all kind of want quite different things. And that, as a sort of storyteller in the natural world, is quite a unique opportunity.

So yeah, I don't know, actually, I'll just rest for a while.

I can't, I can't talk.

Actually, the you know, the this isn't a this is a, you know. It's a window of time into the group. But they don't stop having interesting stories just because we stopped filming them. So we sort of knew there was that potential. And there is a kind of a conversation that's sort of bubbling away. But, you know, I think waiting. I think it is the sensible thing to wait. Let this series, you know, have its impact, whatever that will be. Um, I like, I said.

I would love to do it and I think the whole team would be like, we can't stop now, you know, can we? Cause it's still happening at NGOGo? That's okay.

This, this story for the series is finished, but the NgoGo story continues. And we've learned so much and all that. Um, at the same time, there is an argument for saying, you know, it feels quite definitive, and you know, people would worry about. What we don't want to do is just.

Um, so there's a lot of that experience. Which if you did a season two, you in a way, it would be great because you would jump straight into the story. Um, and not have to have as much exposition about the groups. But yeah, don't know. Do you think it should be another one? Yes, okay.

Um, yeah, and that's quite a long time.

Exactly, Yeah, yeah, it isn't just.

And the longer the study goes on, for the more interesting those things become. Because I think in the early days when they were first observing the chimps, they were like, Okay, he was in charge for seven years. And you know, the the didn't seem to be any pattern, so it was all sort of well. You're just at the top until someone knocks you off. But it does seem interesting that they don't see them lasting that much longer.

You know, they expect them not not stay there for much longer.

Like, Bartok, Um, I mean, these are chimps that passed long before this series, but you would be you'd be interested in it, Bartok.

Um, I mean, always looked big when he was Alpha. Because they tend to, sort of they just hold themselves differently, so they puff the hair out. Pam. It's called pilo erect. When they stick, all that, their hair goes on, and it literally gives them a different silhouette, a different body shape.

And so when you are alpha, you tend to look bigger anyway. But even when he was like that, he didn't look as big as the other chimps. He was relatively small chimp, but he was the longest serving alpha they've ever had in Go Go. So he was a successful leader there, and it was right at a time when and Go Go was still one massive group.

So he probably was leader at the time when the group was biggest for the longest period, and he was also the smallest guy they've ever had in charge. Hmm, and they put all that down to. He was extremely good at keeping his relationships going with all the other big males, so all the big guys that could threaten him. He was fine, keeping them happy.

Wow.

Whereas the other sites I've heard the Alphas have been killed, who, you know, they've been, they've been killed in in the transfer of power. That's never. Interestingly, that's never happened. That can go go they, you know, the the incoming, the could well be a big fight and some minor injuries, but then that's it. And there's a. There's a new dominance hierarchy established. And as long as the outgoing alpha um is submitting to the incoming one in in the formal way, the pant grunt whenever he comes by, then, that's just okay, we've sorted this out.

Hmm, we now know like he's on top and the other chimps know, and but what happens then is they they? They can sometimes retain a sort of high position in the hierarchy, like Miles, for instance. Who's Jackson Giant friend? He was Alpha for quite a brief period.

And then I can't remember who was after, and then I think could have been Jackson. Actually. You took it off. Miles, miles remained high up there in number two and number three spot. He's always remained powerful. But some of them, you know, Bartok, I think just after he left the alpha position, he just began the trajectory down the hierarchy and just retired. He was at, he was out of it, not competing anymore.

I'm old, I'm done.

And all of a sudden, it became this sort of utopian civilization amongst baboons, where they didn't exhibit any of that barbaric behavior. And they were much more kind to each other.

They get beaten up a lot less often, and that doesn't sound like a very nice thing. As a positive that, oh, and the females don't get beaten up as much. And like, that's a good thing. Unfortunately, in chimpanzee society, that just does have, you know? And it's not just it's not just beating each other up.

It's a bit of life and the females get, um, get, part of that as well. But interestingly, females seem to to love being in in the west. And there's quite a lot of incoming feelings into the Western group, incoming, incoming females into the Western group. So they've got small number of males, but huge number of females and females have left the central group and gone to.

And they play a lot.

Um, females, it's part of the the sort of natural cycle, the um, when females reach sexual maturity, they they leave the group where they were born. And it's to, you know, lots of animals do that.

But, you know, chimpanzee communities accept females arriving from other groups.

Where she was? And you sort of you worry about them because it's inevitable that they're going from a place where they know everybody and they're treated relatively well. And you know, it's.

And then they're traveling across to a group where everybody is sort of hostile, but the local females in particular. And that might last a while as well. So for the first couple of years even it could be, yeah, it could be, you know, quite a nervous, anxious existence. You're very.

Do they ever go back and forth?

That's it, that's the new life, the new group. But the interesting thing now, NgOGO, because there's the the former giant NgoGo group is now Central Group and Western Group. So in a way, this is going to make transferring as a as an adolescent female a much easier thing to do. Because they're going to be. Some of them will transfer from Central Group to the Western group, where they know everybody actually, because until a few years ago, they were part of the same group.

So that, um, that's different, uh.

Oh, when, when, when they finally really split.

Bearing in mind there's still the same sort of social structure, so you still have a single alpha male. But the group is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Hmm, uh, even back when I was there a few in, like 2015 previously, so this was before they split.

But at that point, um.

Remember Kevin Langer Grabber, one of the the scientists that was there at the time? Um, they, he was explaining that actually, the Ngogo community is a bit different, like they are one group. But they have these little subgroups like neighborhoods within within the territory, and so they're already describing some of these neighborhoods as the Easterners and the Westerners and stuff. They were part of the same group, and they, the males would, you know, patrol the territory together.

They were on the same team, um, but they hung out in different areas and and it was quite, you know, they. They'd really have an association with that area that was much stronger. And they did think that that was the beginning of sort of, okay. Well, we're sort of spending less time with them, when we see them, we'll groom and it'll be fine, but we're gradually spending less time with each other. And that was sort of the beginning, I think of, of the sort of divisions.

And then, don't know, big, big fights, um, particularly between Jackson and the other, the the what became the leading Western males. um, yeah, big, big, big fights there. The, I think contributed to this sort of growing divide. And then there just came a point in 2018 where the scientists, scientists were saying, you know, the the, the the, they're properly separate groups. Now, this is it.

You know?

But it's also it's scientifically to its unknown territory. Um, and the, you know, the three of them?

I keep name checking people, but it's also reminding me the different roles that they sort of played. John Mattoni, who's one of the main scientists there. He was really the one who sort of highlighted when this happens, sort of how, how unique this was going to be. And I remember thinking, Oh, this is amazing. Uh God, this new thing has happened. Ngo, Ngo. But he was saying, Well, look it. Of course, it is fast, it's a fascinating thing to happen.

But now we have two groups that are both completely habituated to human presence and their rivals, and so as scientists, we can be there and study what happens between these two groups. And as filmmakers, to, you have access to this sort of being on this, the two different sides of this chimpanzee rivalry, and with equal access now, that never happened before. Because usually chimpanzee groups, the habituated group, the ones that scientists have got used to, human presence. You can study them and and film them very closely. But the wild chimps, the truly wild, not used to people ones, you can't get close to them as a.

They're out there, you can hear them, but you can't get close to them. So that the the split presented this fascinating situation scientifically, but also it's really unique filming opportunity. We can literally be embedded in these two different groups. And and nobody knows what's going to happen over the next year or two and but but we know it's going to be interesting and we know.

Situation here that, yeah, anything could happen that sounds like a pitch for.