Episode 450: Arthur’s Seat Coffins

I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast. What's the answer, and what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

Hysterical, a new podcast from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free on Wondery. Plus, I have really, really cool news. Okay? So about a year ago, I got to share the absolutely life-changing, mind-blowing, like universe-warping news about writing my first book, The Butcher and the Wren.

I could never have dreamed of the support that I received then and that the book continues to receive now from all of you. You are amazing, you set records with the numbers of pre-orders, you made every edition a bestseller. It's you guys.

You did it, and it was even nominated recently for an audio award It's for best audio book with a multi-voice performance. Yup, yup, those voice actors are the best.

And now I am so proud and so thrilled to share two pieces of incredible news with you. I have been sitting on these two pieces of news forever and I can't wait to scream them to you. So the first one is that The Butcher and the Wren is going to be out in paperback this summer on July 25th. So you can finally get that paperback edition, and to make this even cooler, guess what the paperback edition is going to have?

What, it's going to have a sneak peek of a chapter from book two, Oh my god, and guess what? I got to read it, and I can tell you it's a really good chapter.

It is, that's right. There's going to be a sequel, it is coming, you get to read part of it in that paperback if you get it.

And what's even better is that my publisher is giving away free signed copies of the paperback to the first 50 people who pre-order. So, if you want to pre-order the paperback with that sneak peek chapter of book two in it, you can go to Tinyurl.com slash T-b-a-t-W paperback. That's tinyurl.com slash T-b-a-t-W paperback. Thank you guys so much, you're amazing.

Thank you so much for listening, supporting, reading, being the best weirdos that you ever could be. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you and love you. I just want to hug you all, but I won't because it's virtual. But like, feel it okay? I can't wait for you guys to read more Jeremy and Ren this summer and it's going to be awesome.

Just you wait, Kapowee.

Hey weirdos, I'm Alayna and I'm Ash, and this is morbid.

Yay, I love morbid. I love morbid too. I love you, oh my god.

And I love all of you. Yay, and you know what, I wasn't here last episode. Uh, you guys got Caleb instead.

Caleb It was a fun episode with Caleb, but you were obviously very missed. but it was a good time. We love Caleb. Yeah, who doesn't love Caleb?

He's literally like our brethren. he's our brethren. He's our. when you call him our brethren, Christ. Yeah, I call him our brethren, Christ, all the time.

Wonderful, we love him. Um, very thankful to him for stepping in. When I had to dip out real quick, what'd you do? I went to New York City.

I don't think I did a really great job of explaining, like, why you were gone. I was like, she's getting, like, honored at a gala, um, I don't know. It's like a New York minute thing. Her and John are going to be fancy.

Yep, that's pretty much it. Uh, no, I got to go to the Poet and Writers Gala and be a literary table host, which was cool. Uh, it was really fun, and it was Levar Burton was the host.

Yeah, and he sang the Reading Rainbow theme song, That's really fucking Special that, uh, was worth its weight in gold. Um, he was amazing.

And then we went to the UM out. I think it's like the I can never say it right, the Audis, or is it the Audis? Audis, Audis?

It's probably the Audis, cause it's audio, audio, the Audis, yeah, but it looks like Audi, the car.

And that was us trying to figure out how to speak on a podcast. Thanks for tuning in. But, uh, yeah. The Butcher in the Ren was a finalist in the multi-voiced performance category, which is a big deal, cause there's only like 25 categories. Yeah, Sophie and Joe, the narrators who did, um, the the narration for The Butcher in the Ren, the audio book. They were like, they did such a fucking awesome job.

And you know what the thing is here? It is Sophie. If you're listening right now, I need you to know this. I don't think Joe was there.

Okay, but Sophie? I think I saw Sophie and I was with Sabrina. Yeah, my wonderful literary agent. I was with John.

And I looked over and I said, I think that's Ren, and they were like, What? and I was like, I'm pretty sure that's Ren. And then I was like, I'm scared to go up to her and say, Are you Ren? and have her be like, Who the fuck? No.

Like, I don't know who you are. I got very social anxiety about it. But Sophie?

And it was exciting, cause I was like, That's so cool, look, it's Ren and I didn't say anything.

And I regret it now. I know exactly how that feels, though, like I know exactly the feeling that you were feeling I get.

Very well, not exactly, cause I never wrote a book and had somebody narrate it. I'm like, I know exactly what that's like when I go to these galas and I get on it. Social anxiety, you know, like, it's I. It was, it was intense.

And it was a very different vibe for me, cause it was such a fancy event. Okay, ho ho, um, Fenswell, Fenswell.

But, you know, it was fun, but that was my outing for the year. I don't blame you, I will not be doing anything else. So there was that, so that was fun.

Um, but yeah, I had to miss the Uh episode recording, I know, and Caleb was like, I got you, yeah. In fact, that's literally what he said.

I got you quite literally said that, so he said, I got you doggy. yep, I got you doggy.

That's what he said verbatim. Um, this kind of works out. Because the last episode that I did was the Birkin Hair case. I loved that, well, I didn't love that, but it was a fascinating case, right, like?

It's a very interesting Scottish case, one of the craziest Scottish crimes in Scottish history. Um, and this connects to it, so it's like a fun, little like continuation, little offshoot.

Uh, this is actually I'm going to talk about the Arthur Seat coffins today. Uh, you? If you were at the obituary show, or if you have been at any of the obituary shows, I assume they mentioned these little coffins. Okay? And when I saw them, I was like, Oh, I've been meaning to dive into those. You actually leaned over to me and said that exact sentence.

I literally did. I was like, Oh, that's one I wanted to, like, put on the list to make sure I get to. And when we decided to do Birkin Hair, which is another one I've been wanting to do forever, I was like, Oh, these connect, so we can just do them back to back and here we are.

Hello, so let's tell you what Arthur's seat is first, cause you're probably like, What is that? Yeah, so Arthur's seat is the largest section of a three-part ancient volcano system that erupted more than 300 million years ago and is now extinct.

It was lit, it was very lit, uh. It's located about one mile east of Edinburgh's old town neighborhood, not very far from the coast. Um, it has slopes and cliffs, it's like very scenic, and it basically combines with other hills and geological features like the Salisbury Crags. And all of these things together. Form Hollyrood Park, which is one of Scotland's royal parks and the largest open space in Edinburgh.

That's really cool. Yeah, it's very cool. I don't think I realized that there were volcanoes in Scotland.

Well, like, they're, they're in way more places than you think, yeah, cause a lot of them are extinct. It's like you would never know that that was once an active volcano or even a dormant one, cause now it's like, it's it doesn't do anything anymore.

That was me making the like, It's dead, she did the like hand across the neck. Yeah, the visuals are hard around here they are.

They're hard on a podcast, but here we are. Um, also if you go on like Tik Tok or something while you can, if you can, fingers crossed. And you type in like Edinburgh, or you type in like Arthur Seat Scotland. You're going to get some really cool fucking videos of it if you type in Scotland into Tik Tok. We were just watching small Tik Toks, actually. And you're like, I want to go to there, planning a trip to you immediately, but um, yeah, it's wild.

And you see our car castle in a lot of them and I'm like, Oh, okay, that's just my castle, that's just mine. Oh wait, those are my ancestors, too.

No, they're just mine, we can share them. So the area of Arthur's seat has a lot of history. Um, it was once home to the Votadini. I believe it's pronounced an Iron aged era society of Bretonic people who occupied the area until about the fifth century. Okay?

Um, it has a position as the highest point in the region, which is good because it made it a really good location for a hill fort. Because obviously, from that high up, it would have been very defensible from all four sides. And over time, the area has served a number of important social functions, too. Um, it was a super fruitful hunting ground, uh, it was the grounds of the Holyrood, Holyrood.

I always want to say Hollywood, Holyrood, Holyrood, Holyrood. Abbey, um, which was a haven for debtors during the Victorian era, and it is among Queen Victoria and Prince Albert's favorite locations in Scotland.

Ooh, interesting, in fact, Prince Albert felt so strongly about this region that he actually enacted programs to clean up the overly polluted Royal Park. And he put in policies to protect basically its natural splendor. That's really cool, yeah.

Now, although the origins of its name are not like super known, we think we know where it came from. But they're not like it's solid. We don't have like the concrete evidence we need to be like, that's what it is, we're making inferences. We are there you go.

And one of the most popular theories for where the name came from is that it was the site of Camelot, home of King Arthur. I know that knights of the round table knife stuck in the rock, you know, like it wasn't. There was a, uh, what's the knight's name in that?

Isn't it Camelot, Lancelot, Lancelot? I knew it was a lot.

Exactly, it wasn't a camelot. Camelot was like, the kingdom. I think, oh, okay, yeah.

So Arthur's seat, King Arthur, it sat there. makes sense that this area would be called Arthur's Seat for Camelot. I like it, I think that is the the origin because it's fun.

And I can't think of any other origin. Nope, it's the. It's fun, it's whimsical, I like it.

It's fantastical, I like it, yeah.

I can't think of where it came from. Fuck these following theories, you know, one of them is that it could be an evolution of an ancient Scott Gaelic word. I'm going to try it, guys, go for it.

Ardnasedd I believe you, which means height of arrows. Okay, I, you know, Yeah, sure.

Fun in a way, yeah, words in a different way. You're literary, yeah.

You know, I'm literate. You are, indeed, and it's fun in, like, oh, fun language and words. Way a camelot, knights of the round table, kind of way. If there's not a knight, it's just like, if there's not a knight, what are we even here for?

You know, I'm a night owl, oh, me too, but yeah, and then, you know, like, So there's that. And then more theories are that it was, once, you know, the home of an ancient dragon.

Okay, that's really fucking fun. You were like, fuck these following theories, I'm like a dragon. Was Daenerys there?

Perhaps, and you know what?

Some people say that the dew on the morning grass contains magical properties that will keep you looking young and beautiful. Give me those motherfucking tuck everlasting drops. And this dew magic actually is such a prevalent legend that many a young woman often climb the hillside on May day and wash their faces in the morning dew. Because youth.

What's May day? May day is a day. is it in May, in May? Fuck?

Because I want, I think we're probably going to go in summer if we go, yeah, cause that's supposedly like the best time to go. Yeah, and like, you know, kids not missing school and stuff, but like, Fuck, I want to go on May day.

I mean, maybe you can just go and get the dew anyway, maybe it has the same. I mean, act like I'm not gonna act like I'm not going to rub dew on my face, act like it.

I'm going to rub all the dew on my face. Hell yeah, you are. I'm excited about that. Fuck botox. I think it's pretty great.

Yeah, just get some Arthur's seat dew. I'm about to some Hollyrood dew, Hollyrood dew.

Any Scottish listener right now is like, My God, my God. Also La Mer. Step aside, exactly there you go.

Damn, the Hollyrood dew is where it's at.

She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence when she left him there. In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston Police Officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.

Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police coverup, if you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a coverup to prevent one of their own from going down.

Everyone had an opinion, and after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision to end in a mistrial. It's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case. In Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify experience in person. The unsettling True Stories behind the Dr. Death podcast at Exhibit C Live presents Dr. Death a closer look.

This live tour experience brings you face-to-face with accounts of doctors who caused irreparable harm. The system that failed to protect their patients and the heroes who stopped them. You'll hear from me Laura Beale, reporter and host of the Dr. Death podcast, along with our panel of experts and whistleblowers. It's hosted by Suspects Matthew Scher. It's an important evening with one of the most iconic true crime podcasts of all time.

Don't miss your chance to be part of the conversation. Exhibit C Live presents Dr. Death A Closer look. Tickets go on sale August 9th, so get your truest true crime fans together and get tickets before they sell out.

So, given its geographical prominence, its splendor, its aesthetic beauty, its magical properties, it does make sense that Arthur's seat would be a pretty significant piece of any Scottish and Gaelic folklore. It's like a perfect place for it. It's like the Fairy Glens in the Isle of Skye in Scotland, which she just told me about, Yeah, go look at that too, the Fairy Glens, or the whole Isle of Skye, really.

I'm getting the fuck out of America, you guys. Yeah, I mean, you look at Scotland or really at like, any of those kind of places, and you're like, what am I doing over here? If we get to go to there, I'm like, gonna look at some. I'm not even joking around right now. Bye y'all.

Yeah, interestingly, too, this place is so like, magical and beauteous and wonderful. It has attracted, you know, obviously it's been part of Scottish and Gaelic folklore, but it's also attracted non-European groups like the Mormon Church. Huh, right, I said that too, huh? That's exactly my reaction.

That's really all I know. They incorporated it into their origins as far back as 1840..

So that's just like an interesting little thing right now as we sit here. It's a very popular like tourist destination that makes sense and you can get there by a short hike, you can get there.

Like, it's not one of those things that you're like, well, you have to, like, free climb up a cliff to get there, you know? Like, it's not one of those. You can just like, run up that hill, you can just run up that hill. Yeah, exactly.

So you're good, but let's talk about. So now we know where Arthur's seat is. I almost said, Office, it got really weird, Arthur's seat.

And now we know what Arthur's seat is. We can now talk about the coffins, the Lilliputian coffins. What is Lilliputian? Thank you for asking that, I don't know.

That was really funny. I really, you know, thank you for asking that. you walked me into my next statement. you go, thank you for asking that. I literally don't know.

I'll look it up, keep going.

I don't know why that was so funny, you know what it is? I think I got so excited about the word Lilliputian because it's beautiful, it feels great. Oh, it's just. It just means trivial or very small.

Okay, yeah, there you go, it's a very small person or thing there you go.

Because, you know, like, say, Lilliputian, Oh, I will, lilliputian. Doesn't that feel just like anything? Usually that starts with lil, I like to say.

And specifically, shun, at the end of things, feels very like you shun, yeah, feels like blah.

Blah and Shun are very yummy names in my mouth, they are they just it's got good mouth feel to it, it does.

I was going to shout out Ryan Lil really quick. Oh my god, Ryan lil. Yeah, I knew that you would be on for a moment.

Yeah, just take a quick little detour, don't worry, I'm not going to like, we're not going to go for it. Let us pray to Ryan Lil.

Ryan Lil, we're going to have to link his stuff in the in our show notes because it's so worth knowing this human.

You need to check out his books, which we will also.

His newest one is, I want to make sure I get the It's in the pines, in the pines. I just wanted to make sure I got the exact name, right, yeah.

It's in the pines, in the Pines. He also has music, music.

Is the song Adore me that we like, Oh my God, or is it just adore the song adore me? It's adore me, right?

Yeah, I thought, so, it's adore me, it's. He's just a very talented human being, he's an amazing makeup artist.

His other book is On the Wire that is already out, I believe, the On a Wire, on a wire.

And.

His newest one is going to be coming out soon, so look out for it. We're just going to link his, we're just going to shout him out everywhere, yeah.

We're going to link his link tree in these show notes because I'm obsessed with him and so are you. He's a wonderful human and it's just like one of those people that you're like, you know what? Yeah, I just want you to be the happiest human.

Yeah, so follow Ryan Lil Washington two L's in Ryan Lil on Instagram. Yeah, okay, and the books are.

Buy the books phenomenal, listen to the music can confirm watch the music video for Adore me.

Watch the music video for Adore me. You showed it to me and I was over the moon. Also, just like, scream out the lyrics to Adore me, scream them whenever you can.

Scream them out your sunroof because my God, is it a bop while someone else is driving by the way? But yeah, so that's our short little detour.

But Liliputian Lil Liliputian coffins in late June 1836. So just, you know, a couple of years ago.

Yeah, a group of local boys. They were just venturing into a Hollyrood park they were going to hunt for. I can't help it now. No, I love it. They were going to hunt for rabbits.

I hate that with every fiber of my being. It was 1836. I don't care, I don't care, people do that now.

I don't know why I'm acting like this isn't only 1830, I'm like, it was 1836 when people hunted rabbits. Okay, you know what?

I think this year, rabbits have changed my favorite animal. Whoa, look at you, I'm not even kidding. I'm feeling a spiritual connection with rabbits lately.

You are, you have been, but I'll shut up now. I think you, yeah, rabbits and you, they're. you're together forever.

But they were going to hunt rabbits, and as they arrived, they were, you know, looking for rabbits, and as they did that, they looked for. They noticed a really small opening. Which when you read this story anywhere, it's commonly referred to as a cave, but like, it's kind of just like a depression in the side of a mountain.

Yeah, don't set people up to be disappointed, don't set people up thinking this is a fucking cave. Don't promise a cave when it's just depression. But yeah, it's like, I guess it's like a tiny cave. But they noticed this in the rock wall along the relatively secluded northeast side of the hill.

Okay, so they get closer and they notice that the opening is actually covered up by what was three thin pieces of slate stone. Rudely cut at the upper ends into a canonical form and then placed into a row. So that's strange, that's not organic, somebody did this.

And they assumed that this was likely done to protect whatever was inside from the effects of the weather, the elements, all the or anything that would come from the outside. So they removed these slabs of stone, which, like, personally, I think was the first of their bad ideas. I'm going to agree. I think. When find something that has been like, purposely protected by slabs of stone in the side of a mystical hill, don't touch that.

Just assume that it's meant to be there. You know, that expression like you break it, you buy it, that doesn't mean necessarily that like you purchase it, it means like, that's yours, now that's yours.

And you fucked up, you own whatever's happening now, you own the mistake that you've created little boys. They didn't do that.

They didn't listen, heed our warnings from 1836 because they moved them and inside, they discovered a 12 inch by 12 inch depression in the earth. So they're like, What the fuck is this? So they look in and inside. Someone had placed 17 lilliputian coffins 17..

And these tiny coffins had been arranged in two tiers of eight, each separated by a thin piece of slate. And I know you're thinking two rows of eight. When I first read that, I was like, that's 16, I'm confused, but it was two rows of eight.

And then there was a third row that had begun with one, okay. So to me, I'm like, was there supposed to be more? Probably? somebody was like, obviously putting more and starting a new row.

I need to know more. Yeah, and then they got caught, you wouldn't just leave it like that, and then Birkenhead got caught.

Is that what you're telling me? I'm saying? So, the that origin story, how they were found like that, that's the one that is everywhere that is generally accepted.

Okay, um. But it wasn't the only story at the time that was circulated, there was a couple more, um, a short time after they were discovered. There was another story that went into a journal, a print journal, titled Notes and Queries, and it was under the headline A fairy's burial place. Ooh, bitch.

I kind of love that and like, anytime you throw fairies into the mix, I'm like, Oh, okay, let's go get into it. Yeah, um, and this one had a much more dramatic account of how they were found. Because that one's just like some boys were hunting rabbits and they went where they shouldn't have, yeah.

But this one said in the print version while I was a resident at Edinburgh, either in the year 1836 or 1837, I forget which. A curious discovery took place, which formed the subject of a nine days wonder and a few newspaper paragraphs. Some children were at play at the foot of Salisbury Crags when one of them, more venturesome than the others, attempted to ascend the escarpment of the cliff. His foot slipped, and to save himself from a dangerous fall, he caught at a projecting piece of rock, which appeared to be attached to the other portions of the cliff. It gave way, however, beneath the pressure of his hand, and although it broke his fall, both he and it came to the bottom of the craig.

Nothing daunted. Sorry, I had to swallow, nothing daunted. The hardy boy got up, shook himself and began the attempt a second time when he reached the point. From whence the treacherous rock had projected, he found that it had merely masked the entrance to a large hole, which had been dug into the face of the cliff.

Okay, so similar discovery. Yeah, boys, just less boys.

Just a boy falling off the side of a craggy cliff. Just like, Yeah, just that. We just added some adventure to the whole thing. Yeah, yeah. And this version of the story does add some more details about the coffins.

It says they have handles. This isn't true and can be easily disproven by just looking at the actual coffins and seeing they don't have handles. So it makes this one feel more of like a jump off of that actual original discovery. And trying to make it more exciting, which I'm like, you didn't really need to. The original one's pretty fucking exciting. I don't care what they were.

They could have been going there to blow their noses and finding that, and I'd be like, That's fucking awesome. Like that was legendary because they found 17 tiny coffins in the side Mystical Hill. You don't have to spice that up anymore, you don't have to give me some crazy story.

That sentence alone is wild, right? like that's wild now. The coffins themselves were roughly 3.75 inches in length. Oh my.

So very small, and each coffin was hand carved out of a single piece of pine. Okay with metal, which they thought was most likely tin kind of adorning the lids, so they had cut out tin and made like decorations on the lids of them.

So tin, metal and what other pine? Okay, so, and they were held. This tin was held in place with wire springs or brass pins. Inside each coffin was a hand carved wooden figure of a human.

And they were, quote, dressed in custom made clothes that had been stitched and glued around them. This is freaky as fuck, right? And some of them had black boots painted on their feet. Eight.

Now it wasn't they. They described them as not being like some kind of ancient artifact, like how most ancient artifacts are pretty crudely done. Yeah, cause different materials, cause of the lack of tools and materials and skill sets and all that. These appeared to have a pretty orderly and neat way about them.

Um, like, someone had taken really great care and meticulous time to do this. To place them where they had put them. And they had not all been put into this little tomb at the same time. And how could they tell that? So, according to news reports, quote the rotten and decayed state of the first tier of coffins and their wooden mummies. The wrapping clothes being in some cases moldy, while others showed various degrees of decomposition. And the coffin last placed as clean and fresh as if only a day, a few days, had elapsed since.

That's how they were able to. Like, that first tier was old, and then it got less so as it went and that last row for it to be. That's creepy to me, that someone could have just been there, that's really creepy. Cause imagine if those boys had planned their hunting trip like days earlier, and it caught the person doing that.

I wish they had cause, then maybe we would know I'm nervous, like, I'm kind of glad they didn't.

At the same time, cause I'm like, what would have become of you? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, they didn't, they weren't really nice to the coffins, they weren't.

Those boys, um, nobody really knows why or what they thought. I don't know how old these boys were either. Yeah, maybe they were like, rambunctious, but it's like, also like, Um, you should know better.

Uh, cause they nobody really knows what they thought when they found these, um. But the earliest reports say that at least half were destroyed by the boys, pelting them at each other as unmeaning and contemptible trifles. Why are boys so stupid? Yeah, like, what the fuck?

On the record, why are they so stupid, especially these boys? Why were you so dumb? Of course, the discovery was obviously significant enough for at least one of them to mention the coffin to somebody else, or we wouldn't know about them at all.

Yeah, according to a report from the mid 1950s, the following day after the they were discovered, way back in 1836. This was so we didn't find out about this, like how this all went down until the 1950s. Oh shit. They said that the boys, one of the boys at least, told one of their schoolmasters, a man named Mr.

Ferguson Um, who was a member of a local archeological society that they had come across these? It really is just taking everything in me right now, not to say turd Ferguson, thank you, bye, go ahead, there you go, you're like, you're 12, shut up.

I was like, But you said it, I told you so later that day. Mr. Ferguson, a very Scottish name. He retrieved the remaining coffins from the cave in the hillside and he took them home and then shared them with other members of the archeological society. Because once he had heard the story from the kid, he's like, Are you fucking kidding me?

Yeah, like, I can't imagine how pissed he was hearing that they had broken half of these. Seriously, I'd be like, Are you kidding me? Have I taught you nothing?

Like, you just tossed them around, like they were trash. What a bunch of idiots. Now, it should be said that the original accounts of this whole discovery don't mention a school teacher. Oh.

And they don't provide any details about how those coffins went from Arthur's seat to the town below. But I believe in Ferguson. Well, so the original one doesn't say it. But we know they somehow got from A to B. And then in the 1950s, that's when the story came out about Mr. Ferguson, the local archeological society, you know, all that stuff.

La-di-da-do. And, uh. It was in an article by Robert Chapman that was circulated among the regional Scottish papers at the time. That, according to Mike Dash, who? I will, um, I'm going to put the the the reference there. We go for what this is for, he said. A search of the Contemporary Street Directory shows that two school masters named Ferguson were working in Edinburgh in 1836..

Okay, George Ferguson as a classics master at Edinburgh Academy and Findlay Ferguson as a teacher of English and math at Easter Duddingston. I want it to be Findlay. So I know I love that name. So so there were two, Mr.

Ferguson's in the area at that time, working as school teachers. So that this lightens up, yeah, now. It wasn't long after they'd been dug out of the hillside that the Edinburgh Press jumped on this mystery of these tiny little coffins. So they, of course, put forward a ton of theories.

The Scotsman reported a few days after the discovery. Quote None of the learned with whom we have conversed on the subject can account in any way for the.

And in the article, they said our own opinion would be had we not, some years ago, abjured witchcraft and demonology. That these are still some of the weird sisters hovering about muskets. Karn, or the or the windy gal, who retained their ancient power to work the spells of death by entombing the likenesses of those they wish to destroy. Literally love. I right, I'm saying, I think it's Karn, I think I said, Karn.

It was Karn, you did your muskets, Karn now. I immediately wanted to know what Muskets Karn is. I don't know about you, I do.

Uh, so I looked it up. Just got to talk about what Muskets Karn is, and why that makes any sense, why this would be like a weird thing. So at the eastern part of Holyrood Park, uh, there's a seemingly innocuous to this day, pile of rocks. That is actually a cairn. A cairn serves as some kind of landmark or memorial.

Sure, it's like a pile of rocks. In this case, I suppose it's both because, see. On October 17th, 1720, a surgeon named Nicol Muscat. He lured his 17 year old wife Margaret into that spot and murdered her in cold blood. Well, fuck him, split her throat.

Jesus Christ, her dying words were My love, my love, do not murder me. Yeah, oh my God. Now. He had an accomplice in the crime, named Campbell, who apparently was sent to Australia after this.

I really want you to do this next, right? It's a wild one, I'm intrigued. He had apparently been trying to get rid of his wife and or kill her for a while, but had failed several times.

He tried to force infidelity on her, to force a divorce at first, what? and when that didn't work? Like, he tried to, like, get her drunk and like, throw a man at her, you wanted to make her infidel, yeah?

So that he could divorce her without like, having any kind of like issues, because back then you couldn't just divorce. Yeah, no, I know, so it's like he wanted the infidelity thing to be like, Oh, she cheated on me, wow, and it's like, that's weird.

But then, when that didn't work, he tried to poison her and only ended up making her extremely ill. He did that several times. Then he tried to get her super drunk and drown her in a pond. He then planned to have her, he put her on horseback and was going to tie her, like, not well into the saddle she would fall.

And have her horse, his horse, like, flip her off and kill her, what the fuck? That's not even guaranteed either. And his reasoning for all this? He just didn't like her.

He had grown weary of her, weary of her. Yeah, I'm just I'm kind of over it, I'm tired of it. Well, can't you leave her for no reason?

That's why he was trying to force infidelity. Just lie. I'm saying, like, I'd rather you be a liar than a murderer, a vicious murderer.

For real, he confessed after he actually killed her at this Muscat, now, what is now called Muscat's Cairn. I wish it wasn't named after this fucker I know, and he confessed.

And during his confession, he said he never loved her and was ashamed of her visiting him before they were married. But out of fuck him, right, like he like further shits on her memory, name this after her.

Right, and that's the thing, like, it's kind of lost to history. Her name, like, it's Margaret.

Margaret Hall was her name. But it's like, that's, that's not part of the thing, it's frustrating. Name it Maggie's Cairn, Maggie's cairn.

Cairn, Cairn, yeah. And he said he married her out of convenience. He's a fucking pig.

EW. But he was hanged for his crime in grassmarket in Edinburgh. Oh, it's getting scandimal vibes. The cairn, right? The cairn was created in her honor.

Good, and it still remains there. You can see it to this day. I'm just like, name it something else. What's sad is like, that's the place she was murdered.

Like that very place where that cairn is, oh my gosh. But that was just interesting to me. But back to the coffins, shall we?

Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Sachi Cole and I'm Sarah Hagee. And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time. Victims and what's left once the facade falls away? We've covered stories like a Shark tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment but soon faced mounting bills. An active lawsuit filed by Larry King. And no real product to push.

He then began to prey on vulnerable women, instead selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs. To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Giudice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame. Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcasts. you can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus. I'm Dan Taberski.

In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like, stuttering, super bad. I'm like, stop around, She's like, I can't. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

Like doubling and tripling, and it's all these girls with a diagnosis. The state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back. Well, you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, well, yeah.

It's hysteria, it's all in your head, it's not physical. Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem, or is it something else entirely?

Something's wrong here, something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline, and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

Other newspapers quickly joined the speculation for what these little Lilliputian coffins were.

The Dundee courier suggested that maybe they were an example of an ancient custom in Saxony in which one would bury a miniature effigy. For departed friends who had died in a distant land. That's beautiful, which is beautiful. But the courier couldn't help put forth another romanticized version of this theory. Gotta sell the papers, baby, of course.

And this is also just what we find out is not true. They said that it could be a superstition which exists among some sailors in this country. Where the wives of the sailors who had been lost at sea would bury a tiny proxy, basically, to make a Christian burial like, happen, yeah, yeah. So they could actually like, if they drowned, you know, like it just kind of like, it's like an effigy.

I like that now. A watch was kept on the hillside at Arthur's seat for days after the discovery because they knew that last one had been placed there rather recently. But now it's all over the papers that it's been discovered. Thank you.

And that's why I'm like, guys, you ruined it, you ruined it. No additional coffins were placed. Of course, because it had already been fucking out there. This person's reading the papers, come on.

Now, within a few weeks of the discovery, the public's interest apparently kind of like, died down. What the fuck happened to make their interest die down? Which I'm, like, shocked, because I'm still not over it, like it is 2023 and I'm not over it.

Something had to have happened. But apparently the coffins, what were left of them, made their way into the private collection of Robert Frazier, who was an Edinburgh jeweler at this time. Huh? Why did he get them? Robert Frazier? Apparently he bought them, I guess, but he displayed the coffins in his private museum on South Andrews Street, and then he retired in 1845..

They were there all the way up until there. And then, he quote. The celebrated Lilliputian coffins found on Arthur's seat sold to a private buyer for just four pounds. How much is that? That's like four, almost five bucks. American, Oh, that's it, right.

I was shocked by that. I'm like, Is that right? Um, at an 1845? Okay, I'm going to do the conversion now. Once they went into the hands of this private buyer, they kind of disappeared for a while.

No one knew what really happened to them. That was until more than 50 years later, so The Coffins appeared again in 1901. Okay, this was when a private donor actually ended up gifting eight of them to the Museum of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland.

Ooh, that's a beautiful thing to say. Antiquaries, Scotland, You know, I just love all these words today, yeah. This would eventually become the National Museums, the National Museum of Scotland.

There's no way to know like, basically how much, how, or exactly who donated these. I'm, yeah, they probably passed hands like so many times, yeah, and basically, like. At first. Because of this, a lot of people were like, are they the actual coffins or are these like, you know, something else? But apparently, according to Smithsonian magazine, it said circumstantial evidence strongly suggests that these coffins were the same group as the one Fraser obtained in 1836..

And that's really all they're going off of. I trust the Smithsonian. Yeah, I trust them, so I think it's right. But the coffins coming back into the fold kind of, it sparked a new interest in them again.

Finally, people were finally thinking about it again, because I'm really sad that they, like, just got forgotten about. These are fascinating. They were found in the side of a mystical, fucking craggy rock. How do we just let that go? how do we, just, like, lose interest in it?

But that speaks to the fucking human psyche, human like human condition. But it wasn't long before they were back in the news again. So in 1906, five years after they had been donated. There was an article that appeared in The Scotsman, and it proposed a new and very unverifiable theory as to their origin. But, according to the article, a woman living in Edinburgh at the time said that shortly after they were found, her father, who was only called Mr.

B had been visited several times at his business by a quote Daft man. And during one of these visits, the man produced a hand-drawn picture of three small coffins. Under those coffins were written the dates 1837, 1838, 1840. Now, there was no context or explanation, so Mr. B just kind of dismissed this picture as like, You know, this is just crazy.

And so whatever. But the following year, 1837, a relative of Mr. B died, and who knows another B, Mr.

C. And this was followed by the death of another relative in 1938, Mr. D, and then the death of his brother in, Or, excuse me, it was 1838..

And then the death of his brother in 1840.

Now, according to the man's daughter, the mysterious man that came with this picture? He appeared at her father's business shortly after his brother's funeral and was, quote, glowering at him before disappearing and was never seen again. So they believe, basically, the Scotsman said, that it is not possible. Is it not possible that this man was the maker of the Arthur C. coffins, driven mad by the loss of his treasures, or was the whole story nothing but coincidences?

So they think that this whole thing somehow is connected to the things that this guy was making these little treasures, right? They were discovered, possibly that was the private donor who had them, and now he was pissed.

And you know?

Maybe, I mean, it's not like, totally unthinkable, but there's just not enough there. Yeah, there's better theories, one of which includes Birkenheer. You're like, That's my fucking theory.

That's my favorite now. Throughout the 20th century, the coffins continued to make huge fantastical theories crop up everywhere, a lot of supernatural explanations. Like in 1978, Walter Havernick, who was the director of the Museum of Hamburg History. He suggested the coffins could be kind of a talisman, like the totems carried by German sailors. For luck.

Now, according to German folklore, sailors would carry mandrake root, or some form of a doll, in a small coffin as a protection at sea. Oh, that's cool. And he theorized that these Arthur C. coffins could be, quote a horde of lucky charms hidden in the hillside by a merchant to be sold to sailors. All right?

This all sounds great. That kind of like, Okay, yeah, maybe yeah. But the National Museum of Scotland pointed out that quote. While the use persisted in Scotland well into the 19th century, no evidence of this particular seafaring tradition has ever been found. So I think, while that sounds like it would have been a good little thing, it was made up.

That's not a real tradition, that's a bummer. So I kind of love it. Because although that's like a nice like fun, I love a seafaring, spooky Sailor siren song tradition for sure. Like any of those stories are fun.

Like that song, Brandy, I don't know what that is.

I can't sing it right now because I have Florence and the machine stuck in my head, but we can just move past it. Okay, cool, I'm sure I know what it is, but I don't. I'll sing it to you later when I can. You know when a song is stuck in your head?

Yeah, and you can't get past it. Brandy, you're a fine girl. such a fine wife you would be. But my life, my lover, my lady, is the sea. I've literally never heard that in my entire life. No, you absolutely have. Papa loves that song.

And then it goes.

I'm probably not doing a good job.

I wish you guys could see the head motion that's happening right now, like it's very much like a night at the Roxbury kind of head motion right now.

I'm gonna have to find it on. Is it on Spotify? Of course, it's on Spotify. I'll play it for you later. And you're gonna be like, Oh, I didn't know if this was like a salty Sailor tune that I couldn't find on Spotify. It's about a sailor because his life, his lover, his lady, is the sea.

Yeah, she has, she is, she is.

Brandy She works at the bar. I don't know, I feel so creepy. People are literally screaming it at you, Oh no.

And they're probably yelling at me for not doing a good job of singing it. I gotta find it somewhere, okay, we gotta find it and play a second of it or something. Can we do that? Can we play a second of it?

I'm sure we can play a second of it, okay, let's play a second of it. I just sang half the song, I was gonna say, I don't even know if they're, I think.

And that's what I mean, like, I love, like on TikTok, the sea shanty, that sea shanty, shit, that's like.

Like, that kind of shit, I'm like, I'm into it and I love.

I know, you know this song, it sounds familiar now.

I don't know, hold on, it's sounding a little familiar.

Oh yeah, but I never. I didn't know any of the lyrics to that song really. Yeah, all right. Well, that's the song. I thought it was gonna be a sea shanty that you were yelling at me.

No, it's just about a sailor, that's all. it's about a sailor who likes this girl who works at a bar. But he can't be with her. See, I'm like, I like those old-timey. Like when we did, we put a sea shanty in one of our exactly like our house.

We did, like, yeah, for those ones, I think we did some sea shanty things, but that's I like those. I like like a legend, like a seafaring legend. Yeah, I like a seafaring monster, I like a siren.

Lessie Oh my god, Nessie. I mean, I'm not Lessie, I'm on the scissor today.

You like, you love a sea serpent, lake monster, if you will, I like those kind of things, so that's fun to me. I like that theory, but it's not as troubling as the Burke and Hare one would be. Yeah, I'm nervous about, like, where? like, Yeah, are we gonna? yeah?

Now so, because they were so popular and that people were so kind of, like, obsessed with them for a while, and there was such mystery surrounding these. It's pretty surprising that, like throughout the decades and decades that they were trying to figure out what these were, no one really performed any kind of thorough analysis of.

Like, they just they were like, I wonder what these are? Yeah, huh? And then they would just like throw them off to the side. But it's like, Do you guys want to like science?

It a little bit like, just, I'm maybe not a lot of science going on. Back then, someone put on some glasses and just take a closer peek at these. Well, I bet Ferguson did.

I, you know, I'm sure he did, but just like, maybe didn't write down enough info. It wasn't until the 90s, Kevin, it was the 90s, yeah.

I'm talking about the 1990s shit that anyone really gave these their due attention. So, the examination of the remaining Arthur C. coffins was done in the early 1990s by Alan Simpson, who was the former president of the Royal Scottish Society of Arts.

Bitch. He was joined by Samuel Menefee, a senior associate of the Center for National Security Law at the University of Virginia. Bitch. Both of them were visiting fellows at the School of Scottish Studies at the University of Edinburgh at the time. Bitch.

There you go, had to wait for that now. They all looked pretty identical, but Simpson and Menefee did note that there were some some variations. Okay, so the dimensions did vary a little bit in size, from 3.7 to 4.1 inches long. Anywhere within that thing, they would vary.

I wonder why? 0.7 to 1.2 inches wide and 0.8 to one inch deep. So that's like so little that I feel like that. It could have just been like, Hey, I made this one.

I put it in the hill. I'm doing this one off of memory, and I'm like, a little off, right to me, that's the thing. There's a lot of these things where I'm like, Well, I think it's this.

I'm going to ask a question, who knows if I'll have the answer, really? Do you know if they had rulers back then? when did the ruler? Rulers were like, I mean, they had ruler instruments.

Yeah, long ago. Okay, so that was my question, but. But I don't know when.

I don't know when that began, like, what year, an actual. When did the rulers really get popular? when did the rulers start to rule? Is what I want to know. Oh, my goodness.

That's what I want to know. What they also found out was that most of the coffin's insides were made of rag fiber cloth, but one was lined with paper, huh? which was interesting. Two of the coffins were originally painted pink or red.

Okay, they generally were two kind of shapes, most had square cut corners, but three had rounded corners, which could suggest two things. To me, they think it suggests that more than one person did it okay.

Which absolutely could be true, like Burke and Hare, or it could be that, well, I don't think both of them did it either, but or it could be that. Like, we were just saying, the variations in these things are like, Well, I just put one in the hillside a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, I'm going to do this one.

I don't remember if I rounded off the edges or not. Sure. I think we're not giving people enough credit for being silly, somewhat lazy and inconsistent.

As humans, I think we're just not giving us that much. I think we're like, it must be more than one person. It's like, Nah, it could just be the same, yeah.

Inconsistent fuckery I'm super inconsistent, so I get it, it happens now. The dolls contained within the coffins did appear to come from a set of figures with flat feet and arms that would swing.

So they thought that those could have been toy soldiers originally. Oh, I'm going to have that stuck in my head now. I immediately did. A soldier. We're getting so sued. The eyes of each figure were open.

Oh, I don't like that. Which, they said, made it unlikely that they were designed as corpses. Yeah, I don't think I agree, because almost every corpse I worked on in the morgue had open eyes, really.

Yeah, I hate that for you. When people die a lot of times, their eyes stay open, yep, they sure do. And if these are designed as corpses, then this person who made them might have seen these people when they died and their eyes were open.

Yeah, I'm just saying, we can't totally be like, I don't think these were corpses, guys. The eyes were open, like, I don't think that's yeah. We need a little more.

We can't completely discount that as a thing now. Some of the figurines were also missing their arms. They believe that maybe they were removed so they would fit better into the coffins. My opinion, maybe it was representative of injury or dismemberment, but that's just my sick ass mind. you do have a sick ass mind.

If these are supposed to represent murder victims, perhaps, or just dead people, then maybe they're being representative of what injuries they had, perhaps. I don't know, I'm just saying, my mind is a weird place, I bet it is.

It is, it's a strange place you don't really want to be in there. But when it came to identifying who might have carved the figurines, there was really no clues for an actual identity. But they were able to take a little bit from some of the adornments, like the tin adornments on the coffin lids. Because they said that it's the use of applied pieces of tinned iron as decoration which struck them.

And it's similar to the type of tin used in contemporary shoe buckles shoe buckles. You say this could mean, thank you, that it could be someone who was a shoemaker or a leather worker. I don't know if everybody remembers this, I do.

I do, but Berky, Berk, Berk, Berk was a shoemaker, but you didn't think it was him, right? He was a cobbler.

But I have a I have something to, you know, something to say. So, a shoemaker, they were saying, would have the skills to make these coffins, but they weren't a carpenter, they didn't have carpentry tools. So they wouldn't have made them as perfect and identical as you would think. And that's why maybe they're a little inconsistent.

Now, when it came to the figures themselves, they said that they still think that these are supposed to be like toys of some kind. Or representative of living people. This is what they initially thought, not, you know, effigies for dead people, because they said that. They could see strong lines across some of their brows, which indicated that they had hats at one point and that there was carefully carved lower bodies formed to indicate tight knee breeches and hoes, below which the feet are blackened to indicate ankle boots. I still think these could be dead bodies.

I don't see why that changes things, I don't think so. If they were originally toy soldiers that they changed into these little dolls, then they maybe removed a helmet or hats of some sort. And that's what those are from. Agreed? But Simpson and Menefee used the figures appearances to date them back to 1790s at the earliest.

Oh, wow, now the clothing on the figures, which apparently had been like sewn and glued into place like, very carefully. It represented a style of dress that didn't correlate to period grave clothing. So they said it looked like it was supposed to be representative of everyday wear and not like funeral wear, like, what somebody died in, thank you.

Because they said that they were probably done just to cover the figures decently and not to represent any kind of specific period or occasion. But if they were murder victims, like you said, then they would be dressed in the clothing that they died in. Guys, they wouldn't be in proper burial clothing. And if they were brick and hares victims, I would think that they probably all had similar shoes because they all came from a similar place, exactly.

And if you look at the pictures of these little dudes, when I first read the description, I was like, Oh so, they have like clothing. That's why when you look at it, you're like, clothing is a loose term. Like coverings, I would say, that were glued and sewn on. Yeah, I keep meaning to look at pictures.

Yeah, so the rag cloth lining of the coffins was dated to the period after 1780.

Okay, but they believed that the coffins were created probably no earlier than 1800, and they said that the deposit into the hillside they believed wasn't done until after 1830. And they said, So that kind of makes sense, because that would be within five years of the discovery.

Yeah, which is when that first tier makes sense that it wouldn't put in there. So, Naomi Turant, who is the curator of European Textiles at the National Museum of Scotland. She said that, based on relatively good condition of the fabrics, that they were definitely buried in the early 1830s. Okay, yes.

And in several of the cases, they were sewn using three-ply thread, which wouldn't have been manufactured until after 1812.

So this does line up okay now. In the conclusion of their report on the analysis of these little coffins, Alan Simpson and Samuel Menefee noted. Quote that the problem with the various theories is their concentration on motivation, rather than on the event or events that caused the interments. The former will always be open to argument. But if the burials were event-driven by, say, the loss of a ship with 17 fatalities during the period in question, the speculation would at least be built on demonstratable fact.

Stated another way, what we seek is an Edinburgh-related event, or events involving 17 deaths, which occurred close to 1830, and certainly before 1836.

Go ahead, girl, go ahead. One obvious answer springs to mind the Westport murders by William Burke and William Hare in 1827 and 1828. Yep.

These are creepy as fuck, very creepy and follow. So I'm going to give you a quick little like lesson, second lesson of Burke and Hare. In case you didn't listen to it, you should go listen to it. But in case you're here and you're like, Oh shit, I want to finish this first and then go listen to that, yeah.

So, following the death of a boarder at William Hare's lodging house in November of 1827. And this will be quick. Don't worry. If you've already listened to the episode, Burke and Hare realized, you know what, it's a sign of the times. Stop your crying. We can make a ton of money selling corpses to the Edinburgh murderers, very big thing. At the time, they were called resurrection men, these people who did this.

And they prompted this prompted the two of them to go on a murder spree, because what is, you know, why wait for people to die, why not just murder them? And they killed at least 16 people and sold their bodies to local surgeon and instructor, Dr. Robert Knox.

Now Burke and Hare, and remember they killed 16 people, sold that first one, that is 17 altogether, sure is. Burke and Hare were eventually caught when a lodger in William Burke's house discovered the body of an elderly woman. Woman that they had killed. And they, they both confessed to the murders of 16 people, but Hare definitely blamed Burke. It was a whole thing.

Definitely listen to it because it's very interesting what happened with them. So they were. They confessed to the murders of 16 people in the unlawful sale of the body of the lodger at the boarding house. And given that they were all marginalized people, that were victims. Simpson and Menefee think that the coffins could have served as like a proper burial at Arthur's seat, because these people wouldn't have gotten a proper burial. To begin with, I think I see where you're going, he said, considering beliefs such as the alleged mimic burial given to Scottish sailors lost at sea. It would not be unreasonable for some person or persons, in the absence of the 17 dissected bodies, to wish to perpetuate these dead, the majority of whom were murdered in atrocious circumstances by a form of burial to set their spirits at rest.

That makes sense. Well, it is always possible that that other disasters could have resulted in an identical, identical, casual, identical. I don't know why that was hard to say, you know? Casualty list The Westport murders would appear to be a.

Now, in 2005, producers from the National Geographic Channel. They convinced the curators at the museum to allow forensic science service expert Mike Barber to test the coffins for potential trace DNA. They were hoping to match it to Burke, basically, oh so, they have some of his DNA, they have his body, so they have his skeleton.

I didn't know that. Oh yeah, now. The tests on the coffins didn't turn up any trace DNA that they could use, which is sad, and neither did the figures. But and the museum wouldn't allow Barber to take the kind of samples that he would usually use for that kind of analysis. So it's like, not really, even a really good test, really.

Right, and they would have to take DNA from the skeleton of William Burke, and he is kept under lock and key at Edinburgh University. Oh, did you say that last time? or did I forget that? I don't think I mentioned it in that episode.

That's cool, or maybe I did, I'm not sure. But either way, they weren't gonna let him do that. They're not gonna let him, you know, denigrate that DNA.

Now, despite the DNA tests finding absolutely nothing. Quote unquote, Mike Barber is pretty convinced that it was Burke who created the coffins. And I it. It makes sense, so, he said, I think it's pretty clear. He told this to the Edinburgh Evening News that people I've spoken to during filming believe that it was Hare who was the real bad one. Yeah, I believe that too, and Burke was easily led and copped to it when he was shopped by Hare.

Yeah, what they believe is that basically William Burke had some kind of guilt. And was making these to give them proper burials, to give them a proper burial. And sorry, was he the shoemaker?

He was the shoemaker. That's all I could think of this entire time. And while it's possible that they could have been placed there by Burke, yeah, or Hare.

Probably Burke, if we're really gonna talk about it, I think there's a better theory that is still connected to William Burke. Okay, William Hare. So, William Burke was tried and executed not very long after his arrest for the 16th murder.

So that was my problem. That's, that's the part that gets me. I was like, when would he have done that? Especially like that last one is what you're saying, right, exactly.

And William Hare, as well as both of their ladies. They were run out of Scotland by an angry mob as soon as they were released from police custody. So it's pretty unlikely that they would have been able to place them there right without somebody seeing them and killing them. But another similar explanation was offered in 2005 by George Daglish. I believe it is.

I know, right? He's a curator of the Scottish of Scottish History at the National Museum of Scotland. And he said he thinks the coffins were made by a close associate of Burke and Hare, who, quote, had a strong motive to make amends for their crimes. The the Doctor. The possible explanation, put forth by Daglish Daglish, I'm sorry, seems very plausible.

And it is that Dr. Robert Knox called it, to whom the bodies were sold. He stayed in Edinburgh for many years.

We talked about this after Burke's execution, he presumably felt some kind of guilt for his participation in the whole thing, and before his arrest and execution. Actually, William Burke, like we said, was a shoemaker, so he would have had acquaintances with other shoemakers, yeah.

Who could have done this? But either way, either a shoemaker who knew about what was going on and worked with Burke or Dr. Dr. Robert Knox makes so much sense to me, yeah.

Cause we don't know really much else about Dr. Knox and like, what his hobbies were and things like that, exactly, we don't know. I, I kinda, I kinda like that.

I like the Knox theory, I do, too. I think it really makes it's like him making amends for it, and it makes sense. And I kind of it kind of makes me feel better.

Yeah, it would, it would honestly be like, not that, it's, not that it, like, absolves him. It doesn't exactly, but like it would be at least something to point to. Because you're like, I'm glad you had some kind of conscience.

Yeah, like you felt guilt. Now. They do point to one thing that could stray away from this theory, but I don't think it's an issue, to be honest. They said no fewer than 12 of Burke and Hare's victims were female.

We know that. But they said the clothed bodies found in the coffins were dressed in male attire. The clothings used to dress. The figures definitely were like crude, and not like fully clothed, and, in my opinion, much more crude than they're giving them credit for.

Yeah, but they said that it was easy for them to put a dress on it rather than pants and a shirt. But if you look at it, they kind of just put onesies on all of them, they really just covered up their limbs, yeah.

With cloth, yeah, I agree, and to be honest, a lot of these victims were found were brought to Knox nude naked, so it's like he wanted to clothe them.

This feels like it was just kind of a like. They clothed these dolls in very, very simplistic shrouds. Yeah, a little bit like.

That's what it looks like to me. If you look them up, that's what it looks like to me. That's what I. They are neither. I don't believe they are gendered clothing. I believe they're very like, just down the middle.

Could be either. I agree with you. And it's also really hard to tell. On most of them, it's just like fabric a lot of them have, like molded away.

Exactly so you don't know. Oh, these things freak me out, they're really creepy. This, the one that specifically terrifies me, is wrapped up in like all white and this the figure's eyes are still so prominent.

I know it's so creepy. Yeah, yeah, now. And they also pointed out that, you know, 17 bodies were sold by Birkenhair, but they only confessed to killing 16..

But I don't think that's an issue because of that other body, yeah, and it's to me that makes sense. Because you have the two rows of eight, which would be who they killed, and then you have that one standing alone, which to me makes sense.

That's also very interesting. Yeah, like, that's the lodger. Yeah, that's the beginning, but they put it as the end.

I think it's, I think it's definitely related to Birkenhair. I don't know who I believe did it, but I definitely think it's related, right? It just makes sense, yeah.

Now, the scientific analysis of the Arthur C. coffins.

Like, a pretty good deal about the construction of them, the time period where they were made. And it gave a little bit of insight into the type of person who likely would have been able to make them. But it didn't really explain their original purpose. Yeah, that's what everybody was trying to figure out, and it kind of only, like, deepened the mystery.

And when you connect it to Birkenhair, it almost makes it more mysterious. Because it's like, what was the purpose of these? Was it to give them a proper burial? Like, I need to know, I know, or was like, was this somebody you remember? If you go back to the episode, they involved a few people in their scheme.

Yep, and it's like, were these people who felt guilt, were these people who were involved in it and decided to do this? As some like, weird, like, count of the victims, you know what I mean like?

Yeah, it could mean a lot of different things. It definitely could. But the other thing that I can think of is that. Um, the guy who was involved in that one murder with them, and that maybe that one coffin could represent that one murder.

That's true, it definitely could, but I lean more toward the the 16 that they did, exactly.

That they murdered, and then the one, yeah, that they sold, yeah.

That was natural, yep. But despite their inability to actually solve the mystery, like concretely, yet, right? Uh, the Arthur C coffins are, like, still so popular.

They're still so popular, yeah. And in the late 2000, the Scottish tourism industry began to, like, really embrace Scotland's dark history and dark tourism. Um, and they would like cater to people who were interested in the Birkin hair case. Uh, Mary, Queen of Scots, the Hellfire Club, like all that stuff, we I need to go there.

Mary King's close, Mary King's close, Um, and this was really just like tourism. But in 2000, actually, a popular Scottish crime novelist, Ian Rankin, he decided to incorporate the Coffins into his novel, Oh Shit, which I think is cool.

That is cool. Um, it's called the Falls, and he entered. He was introduced to them at the Royal Museum in Edinburgh, and he said, Quote This curator pulled me aside and said, Here you like this kind of stuff, and he showed me the coffins. I was just knocked out by them by the idea that these small objects could generate for so long.

Yeah, I love that he put them in a novel, I think that's cool, wicked, cool.

And in 2018, the coffins actually came back into, like, front page news. This time, there was a claim that the mystery had been solved, so after he'd spent months studying the case. A Scottish American writer and amateur historian, Jeff Nisbet, claimed that the coffins were definitely a memorial to this event. Known as a radical war of 1820, this wasn't really a war, it was more like an uprising.

Okay, but it refers to a period of civil disobedience in 1820, which was motivated basically by bad working conditions for laborers. And they were basically commencing an uprising to call for improved working conditions, more rights, among several other things, sure, and the uprisings came to an end pretty quickly, not long after they started.

And it was when three leaders of the movement were executed for their activities, and many others were sent to a penal colony in Australia. I don't know why I said October. But the following year, a group of unemployed weavers were put to work by the Crown. Building a path around Arthur's seat, and it was to be known as Radical Road.

I want to live there. Radical Road. And, according to Nisbet, the coffins, he thinks were placed in the small cave. In this place where these weavers were doing labor, building the path around Arthur's seat. They were put in this small cave as a coded memento to the ideals behind the labor struggles in Edinburgh. Okay?

And in an interview with The Herald, he said by the time the coffins were discovered, the rebellion had been largely forgotten. Saved, perhaps, by those whose loved ones had been either lost by the Hangman's noose or a ship bound for Australia. And so it's my theory that the artifacts raised on debt was to honor the radicals and that they were later resurrected. In an attempt to keep the flame of a rebellion lit in a land too quick to forget, an attempt that ultimately failed, hmm, as evidence.

All appear to be male and have their eyes open, represent men, men not dead yet. Sure, maybe, yeah. Another clue can be found in their clothes, made by from a type of cloth the Weavers would have been familiar with, okay.

Interesting, his theory suggests that he's here's, it's like he's definitely familiar with that time period. This is a good theory, yeah. The fact that he's able to, like, say that. The cloth is pretty representative of what these weavers that were there at the time building this path would have been able to work with.

All of that makes sense. The fact that they're, you know, technically they think that they're a bunch of male dolls. But I think that's really like a loose, yeah, confirmation there. I agree with that.

And that their eyes are open. Like, sure, you can, you can definitely put it in there and make it fit. It's a decent one, but I think experts are pretty unconvinced by this. Like the principal curator of the National Museum of Scotland's Scottish History, David Forsyth, told The Herald, I wouldn't scoff at this theory. And it's interesting to hear another idea about where the coffins come from.

But Mr. Nisbet's idea is outside the established canon that surrounds the coffin coffins. And I think that the connection to the victims of Burke and Hare.

I agree. So even the principal curator of the National Museum of Scotland's Scottish History thinks that there is a connection to Burke and Hare. Then I'd put my money on it. And to me, Nisbet's theory, I think, is a great one, yeah.

I think it's like, when you put it all together, you're like, all right, yeah, it's a strong theory, for sure. And if it actually ended up being the origin story, I'd be like, you know what, that makes sense. I believe that still a cool origin story.

But I can't. I think it's Burke and Hare related. I think that it's the 17. Well, that's the thing, because he didn't explain the 17. I was waiting for that part of the explanation.

Me too, when I was reading it. So yeah, you got the three the leaders who were killed, uh-huh, I'm sure there was more than 17 people involved.

Absolutely, that's the thing. So I'm like, what's the 17? And why would they be placed at different times, exactly?

It's like, I don't know, and why is one alone? Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me. So, nearly two centuries after, they were found in that mystical hillside in Hollyrood Park. The Arthur's seat Damn it, I almost said it again The Arthur's seat. Coffins remain much a mystery to this day. As they were that day that they were pulled out, when those kids were either rabbit hunting or free climbing a cliff, who knows what they were doing?

But that analysis that was done in the 90s was really the only thing that gave us any insight about when and by, maybe by whom they were created. They should try to do something now that, like technology, has advanced even more. That's the thing I want to keep looking into this. I feel like we can figure this out.

And the real, the big theory for their creation is definitely the connection to the Birkenhead. The 17 just sticks with me too strong. I think it sticks to everybody else. It's a plausible theory.

But either way, no matter what they were, they were totems that were tucked away in a secret location carved out of an ancient volcano. That alone is all you really need to tell people. And it's like, what a period, right at the end of that sentence. Was it wise to remove them ready?

Ready? Say it with me? No, I don't think it was. We don't take things from ancient places.

One more time, we don't take things from ancient places. Maybe just, you know, don't touch that, peek in, you can peek in.

Take a look, see, you know what you do. You got one of those little dental mirrors where they it's like the big long mirror that they can look in the back of your mouth with. Yeah, gross.

Stick it in there and go ooh, and maybe take a little picture if you want to. Maybe even that's kind of going far, but then get out of there.

Scoot on out, get out of there and go. I wonder what those are, just say, Whoa, I saw those and that's the thing, crazy.

That would be my ideal situation with this. Because I think, like, I don't know what these were and I don't know if it was a good idea to move them. Who even knows if man placed them there in the first place? There you go, maybe it was beast, maybe it was Fey.

Maybe it was Fey bitch, maybe these are fairy coffins, I don't know, I don't know.

Maybe we don't know, did we fuck around and find out? Maybe we didn't find anything out, that was the problem.

But maybe we like, fucked around and found out, like we didn't find out the things we wanted to find out, but we found out, but we found out, yeah, dude.

Like, I don't know, and that's it, but now that we have removed them and it's been, you know, a little bit, maybe we.

I don't know, I don't, I don't think that's how it works, though. I don't think it's like Givesy's backsies. I think like, I think they're like, I don't.

We don't play that way. Yeah, they probably don't, but like, if it's not that, maybe it's been centuries. My guy, No Givesy's backsies anymore, it's like Leprechaun and like, Givesy's backsies.

My lad, my lad, you know? But I think now that we have them out of the ancient volcano on a mystical Arthur seat, we've already fucked around.

We've, I'd like to, I'd like to find out what these are. I think we should keep looking into them. I'd like more to come out because a lot of people are like, we will never know.

And it's like, that, I don't think so. I think about a million, gajillion things, I think we never figure out. Somerton, man.

Here we are, exactly. I think we'll know many things. Yeah, every, every problem has an answer.

There you go, that's part of Snoop Dogg's affirmations, Affirmations for kids. Yeah, great, you should do them.

If you want affirmations for kids, there you go. They're really fun. My kids listen to that song so many times. Every problem has an answer.

Yeah, yeah, anything is possible. There you go, my family loves me.

I love that my feelings matter, I love it, but yeah, so that's the story of the Arthur C. coffins.

They're, they're wily like a coyote. I think we're gonna figure out what they are. And I think it's gonna be either Burke and Hare related or Faye related. I agree.

That's just me, that's where I'm at, too. So so, thanks for listening. Yeah, we hope you keep it weird.

Wow, that was bad. Not so weird that you forget how to end your show. Yeah, I think that's been the not so weird a lot lately, but definitely not so weird. That you take anything from an ancient place, put it back.

Yeah, put it back, keep it so weird that you listen to your mamas over here and you put it back. Look with your eyes, not with your hands. Yes, okay, friends.

Yes, yes, yes, bye bye.

If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com Slash Survey.