"Michael Stipe"

Hey guys, my name's Sean, I like long walks on the beach, I like cancer, I like sweets, cake, cookies, ice cream, uh, I have a little bit of a belly, uh, if you're into that, call me, uh, welcome to SmartLess.

I'm sorry.

And I was like, just call me when you're done.

No, but it's a great way, what ends up happening is, it's a great way for me to stay out of my head, because it is a tough walk, and then all of a sudden I'm like, oh wow, I'm halfway done.

What do you guys talk about?

On the phone yesterday? Yeah.

What we were doing, what we were doing that night?

We were talking about what he's doing that night, and about, I was asking him if he was going on that trip that everybody's going on next week to see that thing in that place.

Oh, right.

You mean tomorrow?

No, is it tomorrow? Oh, it's Friday. Yeah, sorry, tomorrow. That you guys are all doing.

You can say what it is. Why not?

Yeah, it's to go. see, uh, you two at that new sphere thing, and you guys are all going.

Sean's, not, are you, Sean?

I'm not going. JB, Sean's not going. And then I was like feeling guilt about it a little bit, because, I don't know, and, uh.

Well, you just got back from London, you know?

Yeah, you just got back.

You got a bunch more sleeves to cut off your Liverpool t-shirts, um, you're gonna be busy this weekend.

This is an old t-shirt. Is it? Yeah.

Oh, is it? Does Justin know that it's missing yet, or?

I only do it when I'm doing, when I'm on like my, my walk or working out.

Do what? Cut sleeves?

Wear a sleeveless. Yeah, just because I get so hot.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know.

Alessandra is so amazed by how much.

Specifically on your biceps?

Yeah. It gets my.

Hot guns? Hot guns.

I'm gonna make a t-shirt for Wilco's hot guns.

Guns hot. Can I just tell you something? I was about to, I was walking down the stairs to come down to set up to do this record, and Alessandra goes, what are you, what are you doing? And I go, oh, I'm going for my walk. She goes, but don't you, are you doing smartless?

And it'd be good for the opening.

I admit it.

Oh, see, you would be great at Vegas.

Pot committed. Can I wear this to Vegas? Do you think?

I'm very excited to see the whole sphere.

I know. It's gonna be cool.

I know, I am too.

It's gonna be cool.

And. I wasn't asked to go, but I would love to go.

Well, you've got six weeks. They're doing a six week residency there.

Oh, sure. Yeah. I'll go.

You know. Sean, maybe you and me and Scotty and Alessandra will go. We'll go for like, we'll zip in and out.

Yeah. Fine. The day, just the day.

Just the day. Well, we have to go. It's at night.

Oh, well, we'll come back at night.

I don't know if you two's doing matinees.

Do either one of you guys like, do you guys, do you guys like the tables? Are you gamblers?

I love it. I live for it.

Really.

Sean likes to gamble.

What's your game?

Roulette and blackjack.

His game is losing money. Do you remember, JB, when we did the card game with Kyle Gass and those guys back in the day, and Jack Black and those guys, and the first time Sean came to the game, we had been doing it for like a month or two, and then Sean comes in, just was like constantly going, I'm all in. I'm all in. And this is like 20 years ago. And he won like $1,500 and then he goes, oh my God, it's late.

Never came back.

I know. He tried.

Roulette. Boy, that's...

I like roulette too.

Yeah. Do you? It's kind of... I thought only people that like take cruises play roulette.

Who?

Craps is great.

People that take cruises play roulette and slot machines, right?

I hate losing money, though. I don't really like to gamble that much.

Because the roulette... Yeah. I love it.

I tell you what's not a gamble.

Uh-oh. Nice segue.

Here comes the guest.

I tell you, what's not a gamble is our guest today. I am profoundly excited about our guest. I have been a massive, massive fan of this person's work for a long, long, long time. In fact, almost as long as I can remember. Not quite, but almost as.

No way! Oh my God. I was just thinking about him the other day.

No way. Michael, reveal yourself. There he is.

Hey, guys. Wow.

Oh my God, Michael Stipe.

This is so weird. I was just thinking, I think, yesterday or the day before, like, we got to try to get Michael Stipe on this show. No shit. I swear to God.

Oh my God. I swear to God. I'm a huge fan.

Good morning. Well, right back. I'm a huge fan of each of you guys as well. So I'm really happy to be here.

Great to meet you, man. Thank you. Good one.

Good one. Real good one.

I've been, I often listen to a lot of your music, Michael, from over the years. And, of course, in the last few days, in anticipation of meeting you, I've been listening to a lot and really introducing my teenage sons, like this morning, waiting for the bus, in fact. And we were listening to, we were listening to Fall.

You should buy a car, Will.

I know. It's time. It is true. But I like the bus. Okay.

Yeah. I mean, I always love it when people walk up to me and say, you know, this or that song really meant something to me at this point in my life. And thank you for being there. And, you know, it's all, it's really always about the music and, but I feel like it's my job, you know, moving forward in time, to be graceful about that when it happens. Sometimes people also just don't like me, and that's okay too.

I don't know anybody.

We get it. We have a lot.

I live in New York. So I get, you know, it's not like LA, it's like people tell you what they think, and sometimes they yell it from across the street, but, and so you get that too. But let's start at the top. I like the sleeveless look, Will, thank you for having me on. I got the memo, so I wore red, but I didn't take the sleeves off.

It's not too late.

Yeah, we can wait.

It's not too late.

And I'll see you guys in Las Vegas. Cause. I got a, I got an invitation to come.

Oh, that's great.

Oh, you're going?

Oh, I can't wait.

Well, I have to figure out exactly when, so maybe we can, maybe we can, uh, uh, you guys can coordinate that afterwards.

I'll pick you up in Will's bus.

I am coming to, I'm coming to the West Coast soon, which is, I'm kind of allergic to Los.

Angeles, so it's going to be, uh, you know, we can hold your hand at a nice dinner.

Yeah. Come and have dinner with us, man. I'm a, we're, well, I'm a transplant. I lived in New York for over 20 years. I've really only been here full time for 10 years, I guess, almost.

When we were doing our thing. Isn't that sweet?

You can't, uh, well, Willie, you couldn't, you couldn't imagine living in New York full time again right now. Could you?

I, you know, I, I don't know. I, I, I ended up, I ended up, I don't know if I say falling in love with LA, but I ended up being like, okay. And then, once I had kids, it kind of changed my, my perspective. Um, but then, you know, I spent a fair bit of time back there, especially in the summer. Um, and I don't know, I could.

Michael, could you ever imagine living out in LA full time?

I did live there for a couple of years in the early nineties. That was really fun. And then, um, the earthquake came and my place got, my place got condemned and flattened. No way. And, um, and so I moved into Hollywood and I lived actually, I lived out of the Chateau Marmont for, for a couple of years, um, as, as my second home earthquake.

Um, Michael, pardon, my, pardon, my ignorance. I know nothing. I live in a hole. I'm under a rock.

Um, I was a singer in a band called REM for 32 years. That's how people most know. me is from my voice. Yes. Yeah.

With, with, with the well-deserved, uh, compliments, um, that, that, that Will was giving you, uh, so, in, in reference to that incredible body of, of work and, and, and, and creativity and forward thinking and, and pushing, uh, teaching us all how to like, enjoy stuff that's a little bit more challenging. Where are you pointing that today? Um, what, what, what are you, what are you excited about, pointing that incredible talent at today?

My own work? Yeah. Um, yeah, well, it's multi-directional. right now, as we sit here talking, I'm putting together a show of artwork that's, that's going to debut in December in Milan, at the ICA Milan, which is for me really super exciting because it's the first, um, institution show that I've ever done and the largest show I've done in Europe. So that's super exciting.

It's a sculpture.

No, good Lord. I'm the worst painter on earth. I'm really, really bad. I established that when I was 20 years old in art school, uh, at the University of Georgia. Uh, I, I, I tried philosophy.

But that's funny. you say that you never kept a diary, and yet you did. in a sense, as you pointed out, you have the, you have this sort of, um, years of photographs that you've taken over time, that kind of document you're moving through the world. And also you have all these great songs that are also representative, I think, probably again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, representative of, of where you were at at various points in your life and how you viewed things potentially.

Yeah. I mean, it certainly details my political activism and my kind of coming out of, uh, like, you know, kind of political, like activist, dark place into like seeing the light and seeing like who we were as, as Americans, uh, to the rest of the world. And then, and then trying to respond to that or react to that. Uh, but, but, but I've never been an autobiographic writer. I mean, I, I had this conversation with, of all people recently, Patti Smith, and we're talking about, uh, writers who are essentially autobiographic writers and then those who are not.

And Patti Smith was a, if I'm right, not mistaken, was a big influence on you early on, even before you started REM. Is that right? Like you were, you were just like really obsessed with her and, and would just, and, and I don't know if obsessed is the right thing, but no, obsessed is not a bad word.

I mean, I, I, I, just, I, I bought and listened to horses the day it came out. I was 15 years old and I decided then and there that that's what I was going to do. And it was, you know, I was 15, it was really a naive choice. Um, but, but I, but I, you know, it manifested four years later. I was still a teenager when I started REM and, um, and, uh, and, and we went on from there.

Right. And are you, we get that, but yeah, sorry, can I just say just about that time. really Well, um, you, you touched on it before, you know, starting REM when you were a teenager and you were at the university of Georgia, um, and you met, um, Peter Buck and Mike Mills and Bill Barry there in, in Athens, and you guys created REM, and your first single, I think, was Radio Free Europe. that came out a couple of years before your first actual record. Um, I li, you know, it's funny, I listen to, and it's not hard to find just that for that original recording of a Radio Free Europe.

Thank you. Before the singer starts, it was, it was a combination of like, you know, uh, like it was really just abject fear. And then, and then again, like this absurd, like, this is what we're doing. Let's do it.

But it's the confidence of youth too. Right. I mean, it's exactly, exactly.

Yeah. I mean, I, there, there, there, there aren't words to that song. I was just making sounds, that, that felt emotional and, and that carries over to the whole first album. You know, I, I, I, I, really, I really was just singing, feeling. I wasn't singing words or, or narratives until really the second or third record.

Yeah. They talk about that. And again, was that, was it life's rich pageant that you first felt that turning point? or kind of think which record it was.

That was the fourth album. That was in 1986, I think. And then the one before that is, um, uh, Fables of the Reconstruction, or Reconstruction of the Fables. And that's where I was writing. I was, I was, I started, um, fictionalizing the lives of people around me, to try to, to try to pull myself out of, you know, I, I realized that.

But you wrote one of the great lyrics, I think, in Fall on Me, which is, um, a feather hits the ground before the weight can leave the air. And I told that to my son, my almost 15 year old today, and he literally went, wow, like.

Can I pop your bubble, Will?

Oh, shit.

Well, that's where that lyric comes from. I don't think that actually blows your mind.

It did blow my mind. There's something about, I don't know, but even just as a, as an idea, like of using it in a song. for me, I find it very, uh, very poetic and very kind of, I don't know, romantic or something. There's something.

He's a very easy lay, Michael.

That's it. I'm a cheap date.

If you, yeah. If you want romance, you're barking up the right tree. Well, I'm a, I'm a little bit sentimental and I'm a little bit, uh, yeah.

We'll be right back.

Hey, it's Guy Raz here. The host of How I Built This, a podcast that gives you a front row seat to how some of the biggest products were built and the innovators, entrepreneurs, and idealists behind them. Every week I speak to someone new, stories like Justin Wolverton's, a lawyer who just wanted a healthy alternative to ice cream. So he created Halo Top in his Cuisinart, or Todd Graves, who grew his fried chicken restaurant, Raising Canes, into one of the most successful fast food chains in the U.S. All of these great conversations can help you learn how to think big, take risks and navigate crises in life, and work from people who've done all of that and more.

The first person they look at would be the spouse.

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But we began to wonder, had Nancy gotten so wrapped up in her own novels? There are murders in all of the books. that she was playing them out in real life? Follow Happily, Never After Dan and Nancy. on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

This motherfucker lied like a liar.

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And now back to the show.

Michael, is there any draw for you to continue communicating and being creative in the musical space anymore? Or are you finding all of the itches being scratched in other places?

I can't believe I'm talking to three of you guys. I'm just going to start there because I'm such a big fan of each of you. This is really such an honor to be on the show.

I have 75 things I want to tell you as a fan, as soon as you answer this question.

Okay, alright. Actually, thank you for asking. I started with the show in Milan. That's happening. That opens in December.

I'm going to do a big Google search as soon as we're done with this and take a look at all this stuff.

I can't wait. You're not going to find much, but I think I know when you guys are broadcasting this, so I can tell you the name of it. The title is, wait for it, I have lost and I have been lost, but for now I'm flying high. That's the title of the show.

That's great. Wow.

I love that. But I'm also working on a solo album, and it's a bit embarrassing because I started this when I was 19 and I'm now Methuselah. I've become Father Time as time marched on. But I'm doing my first solo record and it's about half done. That's so cool.

Can I ask you what sort of world that is in, as far as instrumentation goes and band size?

Not what you might expect.

Yeah?

Yeah. I mean, I love electronic music and ambient music.

Opens with a sitar.

It does not. That would be great, though. God, that's a good idea.

I knew you were going to say more electronic. I knew it. Sorry, keep going.

Really? Yeah. I mean, I really, you know, some of this stuff that we did.

Give us the shades.

These are actual glasses that I need.

I can't see without them. We all do.

I can't see without them. Thank you.

They're so right. I should be wearing them.

So more electronic, huh? Because, I mean, REM was so instrumental.

Yeah. Right? I realized really when I started writing on my own and composing, because I never wrote music. I always responded to what those guys gave me. And I'm speaking to Peter Buck, Mike Mills, and Bill Berry when he was a part of the band.

Are you going to do all of it yourself? Like? are you playing all the keyboard, like all the electronic stuff yourself?

No, I can't play a single thing. I'm okay on cube. Everything starts with synthesizer and then drums. So it's pretty beat heavy. I mean, about half of the work is, you know, basically disco.

I can't wait to hear it.

Yeah, no kidding.

This is going to be so cool.

I'm super excited about it. Yeah, there's some really unexpected things that are coming lyrically. I'm going into some territory that is actually deeply frightening. But again, if I'm terrified, then I know that I'm doing something right and I'm absolutely terrified. So that's good.

I think that that's the greatest place to be, I think. I don't know how you guys feel about those moments. You know, you've had those moments where you're doing something, you're taking a risk or you're out on a limb and you're like, God, I'm so fucking scared. And yet I think this is where I should be. Because, if I'm comfortable, then...

Right on the edge of what you think you can handle is a good spot to be.

Oh, my gosh.

You mentioned harmony and one of the things that, for me, was one of the real hallmarks of R.E.M. And I agree with you, one of the great American bands. And anybody who wants to challenge me, I'll meet you online.

Well, that's Mike. That's really... I mean, Mike and Bill are incredibly musical and Peter is encyclopedically knowledgeable about music. I'm not. I'm a complete...

I hate to break it to you, Michael, I'm going to interrupt you. I hate to break it to you. You're really good. And so, as uncomfortable as that may be...

Send him some R.E.M. albums, Will.

I will. But what was that first moment, like when you and Mike and Bill potentially did harmonize? How did that come up? Do you remember that?

I remember the moment when vocal arrangement became a concept that I was like, oh, holy shit. That's a thing. Like, I knew about musical arrangement, but we were working in Memphis in 1986..

No, you haven't.

He was the vocal arranger for Mavis Staples and Reverend Al Green. And I was like, wow. And so then I was like, hey, I have an idea. I have an idea. I have an idea.

But you were doing it before you knew what you were doing, I guess is my point.

Well, they knew. He knew. I didn't know.

But I also love your candor. Because you know that thing where people go like, they'll reference like a song or like a film or a book or something, and they just go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. And you're like, no, you don't fucking know. And I love that you were just like, I didn't know the Beatles. I didn't listen to them in that way.

I don't even know how to spell it or why they were called. I thought it was...

Sean just found out why the Beatles were called the Beatles. What was that, Sean?

Spelled B-E-A. Yeah.

Yeah.

I thought it was a shocker.

I didn't know. it was like the beat. They're making a beat. I thought it was the answer.

That's a funny thing to not know.

That's why.

It is a funny thing to not know.

Pretty shocking hanging out with this guy, Michael.

It's a really funny thing to not know.

Yeah. And he thought Kennedy was assassinated in D.C. He did. It's a fountain, really. He did.

Michael, we went on this tour and we went and we walked... Where were you? Drove by the Washington Monument or something, JB?

Yeah. And he said, huh, isn't this just about where Kennedy... As he's looking over both shoulders, Kennedy was assassinated right around here.

And Jason goes, no, that was in Dallas, you fucking idiot.

Welcome to America. Michael. Go ahead. Go ahead.

No, no, you go, Jay.

No, Sean, it's your turn, because I know we're all...

Yeah. I can't wait for this.

Michael, hi. I'm Sean. And I'm a huge fan of yours. Same, doc. When I was in high school, you basically were one of the...

Failing out of high school.

Just out of high school. And high school, yeah. 88 was the first time I heard... Oh, my God, the album's so embarrassed.

In 1988?.

The album that came out in 88..

It would be Green, probably.

Green, right. Green. I know that song, every word. And so, anyway, so you, along with Depeche Mode and all these... But like Tori Amos and 10,000 Maniacs and all these other groups that I absolutely loved.

You were a major in the music army.

Yeah, it's a big deal to meet you, and you mean a lot to me. So, that said, I have just a couple things I want to say.

That said, I have some notes.

Yeah. One is. I sat right next to you with our friend Jimmy Burrows in a play that Woody Harrelson was starring in. And I sat right next to you. And I don't think you knew who I was or whatever.

Tell me, I always need to know plays first. What city was that in?

New York City on Broadway. In New York, okay. Woody Harrelson was starring.

What play was it?

I don't remember the name. It was years and years and years ago.

I go into blackout with, like weddings, funerals, and plays. Afterwards, I'm like, I don't know.

Jason wakes up in a blackout.

Yeah. Jason can't remember anything. We can talk about something we did last year and Jason will go, I was there?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But anyway, so the other thing was harmonies, what Will was saying. You know, on something is out of reach, that 10,000 Maniac song that you sang backup on. I was on the entertainment committee in college.

I think I thought I, yeah. There isn't a chorus. There's not a chorus.

Try. I think. I thought I saw you try. Yeah, I think so. I think, so.

That'll do it.

Oh, good. Good move. Way to go.

I was like, what are you talking about? How could you not? It's just a third. It's just third.

You sound like you had it pretty wired, though.

Oh yeah.

I know.

I think I thought I saw you try.

Not a shred of ability.

Michael, am I right in remembering that you dipped your toe in film producing for a period there in the 90s or early 2000s?

25 years.

Yeah?

I was a film producer for 25 years. Really? Yeah, I kind of stopped.

What, did you love it? And then didn't love it? Or always hated it? Or miss it and loved it the whole time?

I loved working with people in the film industry. All the creative people. But all the money people drove me up the fucking wall. And it's just so fraught with compromise. With music and with art, and with photography, and with all the things that I really kind of expressed for myself, I'm able to really be as wrong as I want to be and completely uncompromised.

Oh, my God.

I'm a huge fan of hers, too. She's incredible.

That's incredible.

I executive produced Velvet Goldmine with Todd Haynes.

Do you talk to Todd or to Spike at all anymore?

I talk to Spike all the time. We used to live across the street from each other.

Oh, yeah? I love Spike.

He's one of the funniest dudes. I met him when he was a teenager through Jane Pratt. Actually, she was doing a magazine called Sassy. And they had a skateboard boy version of Sassy, and Spike was one of the two guys that were a part of that. So he was a kid.

He's such a filmmaker.

Yeah, we kind of grew up together, and he's amazing. And then my best friend, Jim McKay. That's kind of more. the Hollywood part of my film production was much more truncated than the work that I did out of New York, which was more independent film.

Did you ever think about maybe scoring a film?

Yeah. Actually, the band scored a film called Man on the Moon with Milos Forman.

Oh, right.

Oh, sure. Based on a song that we wrote called Man on the Moon, which was about Andy Kaufman, the comedian. It kind of brought Andy back into as he had died and had kind of been forgotten. This friend of ours brought some VHS tapes to a studio in Seattle, and we were there working. I watched the tapes, and then there was this piece of music that the band loved, but I couldn't find it, couldn't find it, couldn't find it.

That's magic.

That is crazy.

I love hearing those stories when bands, I remember the story of reading somewhere that Paul Weller talks about writing. that's entertainment. in 10 minutes, coming home from the pub, and I'm, like, you know, one of the jam's great songs, and being like, wow, that's amazing. Or like you, writing Man on the Moon, a song that everybody knows, a massive hit that was so, like, you know, and that you wrote it walking around and gave it to the record company the next day.

But then someone heard the song, fell in love with Andy Kaufman all over again, wrote a script, and it got into Milos' hands, and he's, you know, he's one of my heroes.

Yeah, what a filmmaker he is.

And he put together a great cast and made a great film, I think. But the band wound up scoring that.

I want to ask you about, Thomas, if you don't mind, and we don't have to, if you don't. My boyfriend?

Oh, yeah, my boyfriend.

Yeah, just being in a relationship with another artist. Will thought I was going to say with another man. But with another artist.

A different man.

A different man. What is that like? Because you're both photographers. Obviously, he's very well respected.

He's much better than I am.

Tell Tracy and me who Thomas is.

Thomas is Thomas, he's French, Thomas Dozel, and he's an artist who works mostly in photography, and he's a master portraitist. So he puts me to shame.

And so do you guys, what are the heated discussions like? Like, do you guys get into it about, you know?

There's a story here.

Well, I mean, it's an ongoing saga. But both of us love art, and, as I said, he's French. And so he has such a different perspective on art and everything, growing up in France and growing up the way that he did.

Do both of you work with film or with digital photography?

He works with mostly film for the serious work that he's doing. We're in our first show together. Actually, not our first show together, but we're in a show together. that's opening in Cincinnati in October. It's a group show about collage.

We'll be right back.

I want to say two things. One of the things I like that you kind of talked about was in kind of getting into things, and whether it's about work or in your personal relationship. I've just recently, in the last week, been talking with a friend of mine about this concept, this idea that when a relationship, if you will, between two people is strong enough that it can sustain each other being able to feel free to do what they need to do and express themselves in a way that's okay. And when it can support that, there's something really magical about that. When we can be comfortable enough to have differing opinions on things, because I think so often, I don't know.

Well, luckily, politically, we're aligned. And that makes dinner conversation much easier. We've been together a quarter of a century. So we've worked out the kinks. I mean, there's not a place where, I mean, I think with any, you guys know this.

Okay, wait, here, Michael, you like times and dates. I ran, I didn't run into you. I saw you once. It was a great, I was 24 and I was on 7th Avenue. None of it exists anymore, but I was on 7th Avenue and 20,.

Yeah, yeah.

On 21st? I can't picture it.

You were on 7th Avenue. It was 1994..

On 7th, okay.

There's no way you remember it. But it was like, for me, a great like, you know, just trying to, you know, those like trying to walk cool and being like, does my walk look stupid in my walk?

How do you walk?

How does somebody walk normally?

Just walk normally.

Walk like a human person.

Wait, so, Michael, I have a question. How old were you when Murmur came out?

22, I think, or 21,. 22..

21,, which means you started writing, like you said, you started writing.

Wait, I think, yeah, no.

It's really hard to do the math. So you were, I was 13,, so you're 23..

I think it came out in, I think, yeah, 23..

Yeah, so you're 23.. And it means, meaning, like you said, you started writing in high school when you were a teenager. And so my question is, because I'm always fascinated by people like you who, how did you get in touch with your emotional side at such a young age, such that you could feel fearless about expressing yourself through music? Like most teenagers, have angst and are naturally emotional anyway. Yeah.

Wow, that's such a good question. Maybe unanswerable. I mean, well, I love what you said earlier, Will, about Radio for Europe, because that was, it was, you know, it was fear. I mean, there was, everything was an ambition, and audacity. There was, it was all the A words except for F, which is the fear word.

But you knew you could sing.

No, I didn't. I only figured out in, like, it was the second to last record that we made.

Well, how did you find your way into a band?

How did you start the band? Am I right? Was Peter Buck, one of you was working at a record store?

Peter was, yeah.

He was working at a record store and used to come in and buy Patti Smith records or something?

You're never going to believe this, but at that record store, it's still there. It's in Athens, Georgia. And you'll never believe who's going to be there in early November.

Who's that?

Mickey Dolenz from the Monkees.

No way.

Has covered four R.E.M. songs and released them on an EP. And they are fucking fantastic. And he covered one of the songs that we only wrote because it's called Shining Happy People. It's very fruity.

I love that.

With B-52's. Kate. I love that song.

With Kate Pearson, yeah. I love Kate Pearson. That was us working out our super pop kind of bubble gum music.

Was that on Green?

Oh, God, you're asking the wrong person.

I know.

It was on one of those records around that time.

If we could find somebody in the band.

I love how much you don't know your own discography.

He has what we call turn the page.

It's fucking rad. I think it's so rad.

You know what else is rad? You mentioned that Rones had a look and everything. You guys had no look. Almost by choice. It seemed very like there's no artifice, no, nothing.

By the way, JB, think about this. Especially in a time, Michael, you can attest to this, where MTV was exploding.

To me, music was one of the one places that you could go and not have someone tell you what to think about and not tell someone. When I hear music, this is also, I get a lot of stick for this, but it's really what happens. When I hear good music, not bad music, when I hear good music, I see a landscape and I see a vista. For me, it's a very visual thing. And when I write, I'm putting people in that landscape.

So what changed your mind?

Watching Nate O'Connor, it was when I saw Nothing Compares to You that I started lip-syncing. The first video that I lip-synced to is Losing My Religion, which was the biggest hit that we had ever had. It was the song of the summer, of whatever year. that was. And I'm so proud of that song, and I love the song to this day.

Who are your bands? You mentioned the Monkees, etc., but other than Patti Smith, who you also mentioned, when you were 18 or when you were 25, who were the bands that you still... I have a rotating list of 10 bands that I always go back to, of which R.E.M. is one that's always on my playlist. It's you guys, and it's the Smiths, and it's Pavement, and that's where I kind of live.

You have good taste.

Well, thank you. I mean, I don't know. I just like music.

Not in shirts.

When you were bopping around the Grammys and the MTV Awards and all that stuff, which bands at that time were you kind of really excited to be bumping shoulders with?

I'll tell you the truth. I was really excited to be meeting the actors. Really? Yeah, I'm a real fanboy in that regard. So I scared the life out of Dennis Hopper at one point.

Frank from Blue Velvet.

Yeah, he called security on me.

We're going to help you find yourself here. You're going to come out here soon.

I'm free on the 9th, so let's have dinner.

We're going to have dinner, and we're going to change the way that you look at Los Angeles. First, you're about to meet the most dynamic people you've ever met.

It's going to be incredible for you to meet us in person.

It's going to be so incredible. My God, what will I wear?

To watch how little Jason eats and how much Sean eats will blow you away.

We cancel each other out.

We're both the same weight.

I don't know how it works.

It would be surprising to us.

Yeah, that you spend time doing.

To me, you are the embodiment of sophistication. What is the opposite of that?

You're looking at it, buddy. Who are you talking to? I'm the least sophisticated person, you know.

But you're creating a lot of art. You've created art in so many different mediums now. And so, for guys like us, I'm in awe of how you do that. And it's really inspirational, to be honest.

This is not false humility.

I'm really coming from you.

It means so much to me.

I'm also saying it because... What is the thing, as Jason said, that we'd be surprised to know that you do?

That a simpleton might do.

I became a really good cook through COVID. I think we all did. I didn't bake bread. I play solitaire a lot.

Solitaire, there you go.

Solitaire, there it is.

But what about cooking? What's your go-to?

I'm vegan default. Most of what I make is vegan. But then I'll see a piece of turkey bacon and just shove it in my face. And I'm not proud of that, but it does happen.

I'll shove that in my face.

Michael, I do want to ask you just really quickly, not because I just want a quick answer, but just because we haven't gotten to it yet. I don't want to take up any more of your time. One of the great things that you're also known for throughout all this time, and you've used your music to advance a lot of causes and things that you believe in. Your activism.

I try to encourage and support younger generations and the work that they're doing. I thought that my generation, which I think I'm about 10 years older than each of you.

I mean, we have... If there's one thing I want to say to this younger new generation, is the only place you can start is a feather hits the ground before its weight can leave the air. That's right. And when you can fucking understand that, we can solve fucking everything. Michael Stipe, we have absolutely monopolized way too much of your time.

I think we're out of time.

Oh, Sean. Very nice.

Very good one, Sean.

What an absolute honor and thrill to meet you. Huge honor. Again, just been such a fan of yours for so long. So much of your music played through various stages of my life. I can think of them.

vividly. You and your voice and your songs are part of my soul.

Well, you guys kept me going, along with Team America, I think. You guys kept me going on the tour bus for tour after tour with my former band, so the gratitude has returned. Thank you very much. I'm really pleased to have been here today.

Thanks, very much. Thank you, Michael.

We're going to see you for dinner. I'll see you for dinner.

Yeah. Done. We're coming.

We're coming to get you. Thank you, Michael.

All the best. Enjoy your day. Bye. Bye.

Yeah. I just bought.

three of his albums just the other day on digital, because I never had them. I've only had them vinyl. Oh, yeah.

They are one of those bands for me, R.E.M., where I have owned them on vinyl and on cassette, and on CD and on digital. I've owned them in every available format because you want to keep listening to their music wherever you are.

I just... Yeah. I miss his brain, his creativity, you know, the subversive sort of take on things through music and sound and lyric.

Those are the kind of people that we need who, being our pops or not. pop stars. I mean, I guess.

across the board. Pop music is so big and vibrant right now, and God bless them, but I feel like we're missing a little bit of a counterbalance there, or maybe I just need to look... No, I think you're right.

I think that we need rock stars and musicians who are creating music that's, you know, that's so important who also have something to say. who are, you know, that have some depth to it and have some meaning.

in... Yeah, it's like all hands on deck right now to try to trigger.

Sean, you get any thoughts triggered yet?

No, he's just working on buys over there.

He's probably doing a Google search right now.

Rhymes with buy.

No, I... I like all the music people you both bring on. It's so cool. No, no, I don't have anything.

falling out of my chair with... It really is... I was sitting there watching and I was like, I can't believe we're.

talking... I know, that's how I feel.

This podcast is such a gift, just selfishly, for the three of us. You get to meet all these people. Listener, it's all your fault. Thank you so much for giving us an opportunity to sit here, and hopefully we're asking some of the questions that you would ask if you were trapped in an elevator with one of your heroes too, like we are for an hour each day, and it's just such a gift that we can talk to these folks.

We can talk for hours and forgive us sometimes, because I know that people are like, oh, you know, you guys didn't let him finish. We're fans as well, so we trip over ourselves. I know that I do. Sometimes I'm not as... Yeah, we fight.

for the next question. Yeah, because

I'm like, we only have him for an hour and I just want to tell him how great I think he is and stuff and people are like, oh God, how annoying.

I know, that's why I was like, I gotta tell him all this stuff. I ran into you. I sing this song and this song means, and this song means I could go on and on about it and we could go on and on with him, because it's always so sad to say oh,

Bye. Let's harmonize.

Hey, we did it.

Smart.

Less.

Less.

Smart. Less.

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