#2065 - David Grusch

The Joe Rogan Experience.

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Sup?

How are you, man?

Hey, good.

Good.

Thanks for coming here.

Appreciate it.

Yeah, no, it's a pleasure.

You've been on a whirlwind sort of tour.

I guess we should start from the beginning.

Yeah.

So, first of all, lay out to people what your job was with the military and how this all

started for you.

Yeah, yeah.

So, I was an intel officer in the Air Force for 14 years, seven active, seven reserve.

Then I kind of had like a parallel tract in the civilian intel world when I became a reservist.

And ultimately, I got brought back in civil service in a government way at the National

Geospatial Intelligence Agency a couple years ago at a senior level.

So, I was a major in the Air Force and a GS-15 at NGA, which is like a Fulbright Colonel

equivalent civilian employee.

You know, I'm very humbled that I was able to kind of get that kind of job.

But my career mostly, I didn't even really think about this topic.

UFOs were not on my radar.

I wasn't really a believer.

I was agnostic about it.

Most of my career, I did a lot of behind the door special access program, technical type

activities.

I was kind of a space intelligence expert, a cyber intel expert.

And like I said, this was not on my radar at all.

You know, I would joke with my buddies because I used to handle the presidential daily brief

for the National Reconnaissance Office director in my military capacity as a reservist.

And I was well clear to hundreds and hundreds of compartmented programs.

And, you know, the joke was like, when are we going to get the read on for the crazy

shit?

And that never happens.

And I do remember that the day that I really can remember that I was like, huh, what's

with this UFO stuff?

I was briefing a senior person at the CIA into a couple hundred special access programs.

So I was at the headquarters at the agency.

And, you know, after the indoctrination I was giving to the senior person, this person

who worked with Lou Elizondo previously was like, yeah, Dave, have you ever heard of this

guy, Lou Elizondo?

He's running some UFO program at the Pentagon.

We all think he's crazy.

And I'm like, I don't know who this guy Lou Elizondo is.

And I don't know of any kind of UFO program.

So that sounds nuts to me.

But lo and behold, and that was like early 2017.

And lo and behold, in December 2017, that New York Times article came up with the, that

named the ATIP program and the OSAP program.

So Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program and Advanced Aerospace Threat

Identification Program being the other acronym.

And I was like, holy shit.

Wait, that's that guy Lou Elizondo that I heard about.

Oh, you know what?

I think I have heard of OSAP.

When I was a lieutenant, I used to read these reports from the Defense Intelligence Agency

on black holes and stuff.

And I was like, oh, that's like stupid.

Why is the DIA looking into black holes, time warps?

It just didn't make any sense to me back in like 08, 09 when I was a lieutenant.

And all of a sudden I'm like, well, maybe there's something to this UFO thing.

I'm not saying I was like a believer either way on the subject, but this was a topic of

concern apparently for the Pentagon.

And in 2018, I started doing kind of my, what I call my open source literature review.

Like, let me spin myself up on this topic, watching Chris Mellon, Lou Elizondo, Leslie

Keene, all these people talk about the subject and then, you know, just trying to

understand, so what is this with UFOs?

Has this been going on for a while?

The answer is yes.

Like Foo Fighters, sightings of weird stuff in antiquity, et cetera, which we can get

into later.

But, uh, and so early 2019 comes along and my boss at the National Reconnaissance

Office and kind of my Air Force major capacity forwarded me an email from the,

what became the, uh, stood up in like, I guess it was 2018, which was the unidentified,

well it was Ariel, now Anonymous Philomena Task Force, UAP Task Force.

So the UAP Task Force director sent my boss an email saying, hey, we're looking for a

rep to the task force.

And as like any good officer, I was like, well, I'll put it on my performance report.

Hey, I was on a task force and you know, that would look good.

And I being well cleared and also a bachelor's degree in physics, a master's in

intelligence analysis.

I'm like, you know what?

I'll figure out what the shit is.

It's either going to be weather shit.

Maybe it's an adversarial program.

Maybe it's like a US program.

People are misidentifying on rare occasions.

So fuck it.

I'll, I'll go see where the data takes me.

And, you know, early 2019 or so I joined the UAP Task Force.

Um, and then I started, you know, interviewing pilots, um, uh, flag officers,

you know, general officer equivalent type Navy folks.

And, you know, they were seeing some really crazy shit and like a, you know,

event that I talked about previously publicly in a YouTube video on a yes

theory channel, you know, I, there was this one 30 year senior Navy officer

that, you know, he was going to work sober, no predisposition for fantasy,

all that kind of stuff.

Cause I interviewed the individual for a couple hours and he saw this, you

know, crazy triangle hover over his car, going to work at a certain Naval

facility.

And it like blew his mind.

He was serious.

Um, the paint on his car turned milky white after the incident.

So that's, to me, that sounds like ionizing radiation.

So like ultraviolet, just like how your, your headlights get all foggy over

time.

If you park your car out in the sun, same phenomenon just happened, you know,

within 24 hour period.

And I'm like, Whoa, if this is true.

And the, the, the oral testimony and, you know, crazy radar data that I saw

when I was on the task force, you know, stuff making turns.

It didn't make any sense.

Well, Holy shit.

What is this stuff?

That this, um, anomaly with his paint was, is, is documented.

Is it photographs?

Yes.

I saw photographs.

It was documented.

Yeah.

And, uh, what, is there a conventional explanation?

I mean, based on what he described something to rapidly ionize his paint

like that within a day, I don't,

I can't think of anything off the top of my head in terms of some conventional

aerospace technology.

And, and this was a certain facility in the continental U S this is not

overseas.

So it's not like our adversaries flying some spooky thing, um, in us

airspace.

So this thing hovered over his car for how long?

A couple minutes while he was traveling at about 60 miles an hour.

So it was pacing.

How far away from his vehicle?

Hmm.

It's probably a couple hundred feet in altitude.

It was less than a thousand feet,

which is also bad because from an airspace perspective,

pilots would know this anything under a thousand feet.

No.

Unless you get special clearance and you only do that over controlled

airspace, like a military test ranges, right?

People fly low and that kind of thing.

So is, is he on what kind of a highway is he on?

A conventional civilian,

civilian has anyone could have been on it.

Yes.

And it just happened to be this guy.

Mm-hmm.

Um, did he have any other experiences with this thing?

No, this was like a once in a lifetime thing.

Um, he kept it to himself for a couple of years, but then he, um,

his task force, what was his name?

Uh, I don't know what he said.

Okay.

Individual still on.

It's called Bob.

Yeah.

But did anybody say to him, Hey Bob, what the fuck happened to your car?

You know, that's a good question.

I don't remember if, uh, people asked him about his car.

So he's a pride in his car.

So it actually was probably more upsetting to him personally.

What kind of car was it?

It was like a Toyota or something.

Okay.

Yeah.

So all of a sudden this Toyota is fucked.

Yeah.

Okay.

And, um, so did he have to report this?

Is this something that.

He did not report it to my knowledge to anybody.

It wasn't until he reported it to us about five years later that it, uh,

happened.

So are those,

these kinds of experiences something that a lot of these pilots are embarrassed

about discussing or have apprehension about discussing because they could be

ridiculed.

Yeah.

A lot of people that are on flight status,

they don't want to be sent to the psych, right.

You know,

there's a whole aerospace physiology kind of empire in the military.

Uh, then,

you know,

if you're an operator or,

you know,

a guy,

a missile,

missile key Turner,

you're on what they call a personal reliability program.

You're taking like,

you know,

Tylenol,

you got to report it.

If you have a fever,

you got to report it.

Cause you're,

you know,

in control nuclear weapons when you're on duty.

right.

Yeah.

And so this idea of,

uh,

being predisposed to fantasy,

that's also something that they,

uh,

sort of talk to these people about or try to get a gauge of.

Yeah.

Yeah.

These are people that are very sober minded.

I mean,

this individual was early in the morning going to work,

not under the influence of anything.

And,

uh,

that person had a,

you know,

similar clearance is mine,

no TSSCI.

So,

you know,

we've gone through top secret,

you know,

since the department of information clearance.

And,

you know,

just like myself,

I've been through multiple polygraphs in my career.

So did this individual.

So,

um,

does he have any idea or any,

uh,

theories about why this thing was following him?

No,

that's what freaked him out the most.

Cause it,

he didn't have any experience in his life like this.

It like totally blew his mind when he looked out his

moon roof and then looked out the side of his,

uh,

car door and saw this 300 foot triangle.

Uh,

it was like pre-dawn sky,

but it was darker than the pre-dawn sky.

And it had this like plasma edges.

Like it was like purplish glowing edges.

And these three lights that had like these omni

directional,

like almost like pull lights,

you know how there's,

you can't really tell where the light sources.

And it was totally trippy.

And that,

and that's just one example of many anecdotal with

some evidence,

you know,

pilot stories.

Uh,

and that's what made me dig deeper.

And I started,

you know,

cultivating my network.

Like has the government studied this before?

This wasn't just all SAP and a tip and blue book

and all this shit in the past,

right?

There's,

this seems serious.

So like certainly the government has looked at this

and,

you know,

I went to search for that program and that's what I

ended up whistleblowing on.

Right.

So when you,

what was,

how did you initially discover this program?

And like,

what was your first encounter with the

information?

A very senior individual in the Intel community

came to me when,

uh,

I guess I was asking a lot of questions cause I'm

a very inquisitive guy.

And it was like,

Hey,

we,

I need to introduce you to somebody.

Uh,

you know,

he listed that certain person's academic credentials,

which were beyond reproach,

you know,

PhD level education,

clearance.

Resume was insane.

I'm like,

well,

okay,

sure.

I'll,

I'll talk to this person.

And,

and I ended up meeting that person in a,

you know,

uh,

a top secret facility.

And,

you know,

he started to discussing like,

Hey,

there was a program,

I was on it.

And,

you know,

we were reverse engineering crash material that

we've recovered over the decades,

you know?

And he's like,

I'm not joking.

You know,

it,

you know,

we know what we're telling you because you're,

you have,

you guys have to report to the deputy secretary of

defense and Congress on this matter.

Right.

And we were,

we were actively briefing like,

uh,

secretary Esper,

deputy secretary Norquist,

you know,

um,

other cabinet level folks.

Right.

And it's like,

there's a,

there,

you know,

there must be,

there's an oversight issue because you're the UAP

task force.

You should be read into this stuff because like,

why spend the taxpayers,

you know,

dollars looking at stuff that we already have data

on.

Right.

So that's,

and that spooked me.

And that was like fall of 2019.

And,

you know,

I don't take a guy's word for it.

I'm like,

you know what?

Myself and my trusted colleagues that had a lot,

a lot of special accesses like me,

you know,

we cultivated our network and we ultimately interviewed

about 40 people or so all the way up to multi-star

generals,

directors of agencies,

mid-level guys that literally touched it,

worked inside of it,

all the stuff they brought Intel reports for me to

look at,

you know,

documents.

And,

and a lot of that I could cross verify with other

oral sources that my high-level colleagues or I

talked to.

And,

um,

you know,

it,

it checked out,

especially when I had enough information on,

and,

and I know who specifically to ask like,

Hey,

well,

I want read into this.

Like I'm on the UAP task force.

And we went to those,

I'll call them gatekeepers for the lack of a better

term.

And they basically said,

fuck you to me and my colleagues.

Hmm.

So why were these other people willing to discuss

this with you?

Well,

they determined I didn't need to know.

I was already cleared at such a high level handling

presidential material and everything.

It's like,

Dave needs to know.

And they felt that coming to us,

it was a form of a protected disclosure.

They felt that they weren't really violating anything

because,

you know,

we were the,

I'll call it the investigatory body,

uh,

for the department of defense and the intelligence

community and,

and Congress at the time.

And they,

you know,

you are allowed to,

you know,

disclose to a government official in an official

capacity.

And I,

you know,

did that.

You know,

of course I protected those people and,

and do know,

I took those people,

a lot of them.

And I brought them to the intelligence community

inspector general when I filed my complaint,

because I don't want people to,

you know,

hear it from a secondhand source.

You know,

people call it hearsay,

whatever.

Well,

I have some firsthand knowledge.

I eventually talk about someday.

I'm trying to get it cleared,

but through,

through security processes.

Um,

uh,

so they could hear it and hear the details like,

you know,

who,

what,

when,

where,

why,

where the shit is,

who's in control of it,

what are the cover programs,

et cetera,

et cetera,

et cetera.

So,

uh,

and that's what deemed my,

my complaint credible and urgent in July,

2022,

uh,

which is a,

so that my complaint,

yes,

was about reprisal too.

I filed that separately eventually to the,

the department of defense inspector general.

That's an ongoing investigation,

but my,

it was my congressional oversight,

uh,

UAP crash retrieval allegations that was deemed,

uh,

credible and urgent.

It was sent to the director of national intelligence.

And then it was sent to the congressional intelligence

committees around that time,

July of 2022.

And I eventually went to Congress in December,

2022.

And it's a crazy story why it took so long.

It's fucking nuts.

Um,

but I provided total about 11 and a half to 12 hours of,

uh,

you know,

classified testimony to the congressional staffers and their

lawyers for both the house and the Senate.

And I,

I went,

you know,

full open kimono.

I mean,

I told them as much as I could within my time slot,