Don’t Let a Disaster Dictate Your Financial Reality

What's going on? This is John and my good friend, George Camel, and this is the Ramsey Show, live from Nashville, Tennessee, where we talk to people about their money, their relationships, their mental and emotional health, their work, just about any and everything. We're taking your calls live, 888-825-5225, 888-825-5225.. And we're going to go out to Redding, Pennsylvania, and talk to Anton to get this show going this afternoon. What's up, Anton? How we doing?

Good. How are you guys?

Outstanding, brother.

Is it Anton?

Yes, Anton.

I have a sneaking suspicion.

Oh, great. Sorry, Anton.

I just want to respect the name.

That's all good. Can you guys hear me okay?

Yeah, we got you, man. Great. What's going on?

Awesome. So, I wanted a little advice on a situation I got going on. So, I run my own business, and it's been going really well, but two weeks ago, I had a seizure, which my heart stopped beating for a little bit, and I stopped breathing. And when I came to, and I'm healthy, it kind of made me reevaluate every decision I've made, every decision I'm making, and the best thing to do is leave my wife in a good situation in case anything happens.

Wow.

Have they worked through what happened? Have they been able to give you some clarity on what your body's doing?

Yeah. So, I pretty much had a severe panic attack that was brought on by some previous trauma, and my body pretty much just decided to shut down, and they said, hey, that's it. You're going to have a seizure now.

And we're out. What's the trauma that your body was replaying?

It's some prior PTSD from some family stuff that happened with my brother. Unfortunately, he's doing great now, but it's just things that I have to live with.

Okay. Did this happen out of the blue, or was there family stuff going on that started a domino effect that kicked this, that ended with this collapse?

You know, surprisingly, it was a scene in a movie, and the scene was pretty much exactly what I lived. My brain told myself, this could be a problem. You can handle it, and sure enough, I couldn't handle it.

Gotcha. So, what's been the follow-up?

So, I mean, I'm healthy now, which is good. My brain's a little rattled, and, you know, I have a business where I build custom fish ponds and I breed high-end koi fish, and the business is great. Things are doing good, but, you know, after that, I was like, oh, man, you know, my time on here could be, you know, limited at any moment, provably, like, if it's time to go, it's time to go. So, I was thinking about, you know, what do I do with my business if I were to go, and, you know, my wife can't do what I do. I have money in investments and things like that, which she can have, but I'm trying to figure out if I maybe pivot to something that's more, you know, palatable for her to be able to run if something happens to me and I sell my business, or if I just keep going and pack money away and, you know, get ourselves in a better situation.

Can I challenge you a bit, Anton?

Absolutely.

Anytime we have a moment where we feel like we're betrayed by our own body, when it lets us down, whether it's an anxiety response or a panic attack response, or a heart attack, or a stroke or an aneurysm, there's that, the foundation of our life gets shaken, right? It feels like the sidewalk we were walking on is suddenly cracked and it's not safe to walk on anymore, because the one thing we could always count on was our bodies, right?

Yep.

And when family relationships are screwy, when neighborhoods, when finances, when politicians, I can count on me. And then your body said, and we're out, right?

Yep. Yep.

So times of reflection after that are really, really important, because you're right. You got to peer over the edge and be like, oh man, our life is fragile and it's quick and it's short.

Oh yeah. The fight or flight's telling me to, you know, flight.

Right. And so you are trying to flee from your present reality. And so what you're going to do is you're trying to live into the future and to create a job in the present that one day your wife will carry on without you because you're going to die young. And then you want to make sure she, dude, you're. now you're inventing stories to try to solve in the present as a way to not deal with.

Yeah. I grew up with nothing, abusive household, you know, dug ourselves out and, like, things were finally going great. And then this happened and I just felt like that little kid again of being out of control. And it's scary.

Okay. But when you came to, tell me about your marriage.

Oh, marriage is great. I mean, we've been through a lot.

Hold on. Don't, don't qualify it. Don't qualify it. You've been qualifying your whole life. Your marriage is good. Okay.

Fair enough.

Marriage is good. You love the woman you're married to?

Absolutely. A hundred percent.

She loves you?

Absolutely.

Do you have little ones? No. What's the state of your finances?

Finances are good. We have been paying off debts. I only have about $10,000 left and I took my house from 30 years to Hoyt and only having four years left on it. So we are sitting pretty for our age.

How old are you?

I am 26..

Awesome. Do you have life insurance in place?

I don't. It was something that I was in the middle of working on and the paperwork should be started soon, but I was listening to Ramsey a lot and kind of figuring out, you know, all of that. And so we were looking at some options that kind of follow the Ramsey plan a little more.

Please do it today. As soon as you're off the phone, contact our friends that go to zander.com and get a term life quote 10 to 12 times your annual income, 15 to 20 year term should be great for you. But that's going to give you the real peace of mind you're looking for of the, like, what if something happens to me, it's not going to be the business. It's. how is she going to pay the bills for the next 20 years?

Yeah.

And so that's something I would do today to give you a little bit more peace as you figure out what's next.

Yeah. And if you're, if you're following the Ramsey plan, we'll tell everybody to get life insurance. You got to, you got to, you got to, um, you're going to have to go through some extra testing. Probably that's just par for the course. Cool. Just head right into it. But here's what I want you to see. Your body immediately took you back to when you were 12 years old and getting beat up in your own home. Right. Yep. And then, when you came to, you came to in the present, where you're a great husband and you're a hard worker and you've transformed your family's future financial situation.

Yep.

And one of the things our bodies does is it just replays those old stories until we can show it that we weren't safe then, but we're safe now.

Yeah.

And so you mentioned early in the call, you, um, you're all good. now. I'm going to tell you, brother, you're not, but you're also in a remarkable position. to now go, get the healing that you need to do.

Right.

And my goal for you is not that you can undo what happened in your kid, cause you can't, but you'll be able to think about it. You'll be able to watch a movie scene and your body won't drag you back 20 years, back to hell. It will remember and you'll go, whew, and your heart rate will go up a little bit, but you'll recognize you're surrounded by a woman who loves you, the family who's with you. now. You're safe financially. You got a team, you got a gang and so on and so forth. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Oh yeah. It makes sense. I just needed to talk through it, man.

No, you got it. And I'm proud of you for saying it out loud. You want to quit your job, quit your job. Don't quit your job, because 20 years from now you might drop dead and your wife's going to not want to carry on a coy business. Right? Yeah. And my guess is you love what you do. I think you love raising fish and you love doing all and creating ponds. That's amazing. That's awesome. Continue to build that business, build that business so big that the pile of money you leave your wife, she won't have to work. And then she can sell it to some other young guy who's creating his life, moving forward. But, man, you're on the right path. Your healing journey starts right now. This is the Ramsey Show.

Good. How are you?

We're partying, brother. How can we help, man?

So I sort of have like one question. So I'm not like an avid watcher of the Ramsey Show, but I see a lot of clips online where you guys talk about mutual funds and investing in mutual funds. I was wondering, why do you recommend mutual funds over index funds?

Great question, man. How old are you?

21..

Lovely. And are you investing right now?

Yeah, I've been investing since I was 15..

Oh, my goodness.

Dude, that's amazing. Who taught you that?

My dad taught me a little bit, and I read about it.

Nice. That's awesome.

What have you been investing in for the past six years?

So I was doing like mostly index funds, but I like to play around, do some stock picks, but obviously not a lot of...not a big portion of my portfolio goes towards that.

Okay. Are you working full-time?

Yeah. I'm in marketing.

Nice. That's amazing. Okay. And how much are you investing as a percentage of your gross household income?

Probably like 25, 30%.

Oh my goodness. Okay. So you're going to be a multimillionaire regardless of this conversation that happens next. Can we agree on that?

Yeah. Okay. Where do you live, Matt?

Right outside of Charlotte.

No, no, no. Do you have your own house, your own apartment? You living with mom? Where are you living?

No. I still live with my mom at home.

Okay. All right.

Cool. How much do you make a year?

Yeah.

Oh, my goodness, dude. You're crushing it. So we're talking, you're investing like 18,000 a year.

No. I use a Roth IRA.

Okay. So what happens after you? max that out?

I just put in a regular brokerage.

Okay. Great. So let's talk about index funds versus mutual funds. And for the listener's sake, if they're like, what are these goober nerds talking about? Index funds are basically passively managed mutual funds. So still a giant group of stocks, but it's tracking an index, basically a set list of companies. Whereas the mutual funds that are actively managed has an investment manager that is selecting the funds that make the list.

Let's go even simpler for guys like me. When you say index, they're indexed and they're passively managed.

So index, there's no one running the show. It's just a set list.

And so they pick, I'm making these up, they pick.

There's 500 companies, the largest US companies.

And if they go up, then the index fund goes up. And if they just all go down, then the index fund kind of goes down. And over time, we hope these companies just keep getting bigger and growing. And then can companies fall off the S&P 500 and new ones pop in? Yes. So the whole thing should be just going up over time.

Exactly.

And so index funds means nobody's driving, it's just following whatever those...

It's the autonomous vehicle of the investing world. You like that?

You just ruined it for people.

John, I know. There we go.

Excellent. Okay.

Is that a good summary, Matt? Because you know about this stuff just as much as we do.

Yeah. Okay. And I mean, one thing that's sort of important to note is that mutual funds sort of have built-in fees. Right? You know what I mean?

Correct.

There's built-in fees.

There's an investment manager. There's people to pay because this is their job to run these. Exactly. So they do have fees. The perks of the index funds, as you know, diversification, which mutual funds have, low expense ratios, which index funds have, and predictability. And every investing rose has its thorn. For starters, your index funds won't beat the market because it represents the market. Does that make sense? So you'll settle for the average of the market. You can never beat it. The goal of the mutual fund is that that investment manager is picking, is hand-selecting funds based on tons and tons of research that they're doing every day, day in and day out, in order to attempt to beat it. So let's say the market does 10%. Well, the goal of the mutual fund is to do 12% or 14%. Now, as we know, they won't hit that goal every year. We don't have a crystal ball. We can agree on that?

Do you look for specifics in a mutual fund to try to hit those funds? Because I know 80% of mutual funds don't beat the market.

No, that's actually factually incorrect. Morningstar did this article and they said nearly 57% of mutual funds, these active U.S. equity funds, they beat the average index fund peer over the 12 months through June 2023.. So that means six out of 10 mutual funds beat the index.

Wait, over how long?

Over a 12-month period. They looked at, here's what mutual funds did, here's what the peer index fund did. Six out of 10 beat the index fund.

Right, but why are you looking at a 12-month period versus, like, you know, decades?

You can't look at decades and it's going to change depending on the decade you look at. And the truth is there's going to be mutual funds that don't beat the index and there's going to be years. the index beats the mutual funds. And so the goal here is to slightly beat the copycat of the stock market, which is the index fund. And so the index funds also do have a fee. You'll see it listed as a 12B1 fee. And so that kind of makes up for the fact the mutual fund fees there. So it's not exactly free. And here's the thing. We're not anti-index funds. There's a time and place. In fact, Dave Ramsey invests in index funds outside of retirement. You have that taxable brokerage account, right? Yeah. Dave would say index funds are the smart play there. because of the low turnover. They're not moving things around as much, which makes the fees less. But in retirement, you're not having to pay those fees because you're not worried about turnover, because this is a long term play. And therefore he invests in mutual funds for his retirement accounts, index funds outside of retirement. So there's a time and place for both.

What do you look for in a mutual fund, though?

Well, there's a lot of pieces of it, including, you know, rate of return, the expense ratio, what the fund is made up of, who the fund manager is, have they switched the investment team recently? You know, if it's been doing great for 30 years and all of a sudden they switch the crew, well, that's something you want to look out for, because things might change. And we actually covered this in-depth, Matt, in our Investing Essentials live stream. And it's not currently available. But just for you, I'm going to send you a link to watch that for free. How's that sound?

Good, but isn't that sort of inevitable? I mean, if a mutual fund has a 30 year history with one manager and I'm 21 and I want to invest for another 30 years, you know, isn't there pretty much a guarantee that the fund manager is going to change the fund management team?

Sure, over time, you know, things may change. But what we're looking for is that longer term track record. And so we're not going to choose a fund that's been around for a year. We prefer the one that has a track record of 10 or 15 that's had the same team with the same record of success.

But, dude, that's like saying, I don't want to root for the Yankees or the Astros because they're going to have different players in a few years. The goal is, you hope that they have guiding principles and they have the same desire to win and they have the same integrity over time. Some teams are better integrity than others. with the teams I just labeled. I know, Kelly's looking at me, not the Astros.

Kelly's upset.

But you see what I'm saying? Like, yeah, the fund manager is going to roll over, but it will change over time.

Matt, here's the deal. We can argue all day and I can tell you like this, but you can be a multimillionaire just from your index funds. You don't have to ever touch a mutual fund. if you don't want or are going to still be friends. You're doing great. The key is your savings rate. That's the key. That's what's holding people back from having money. It's not the discussion of index versus mutual. That's for another time. But for everyone else listening, just freaking invest. Be like Matt. At 21 years old, invest 18 grand a year. You're going to have money in retirement, regardless of where you put it.

And for what it's worth, George and I both put our money in mutual funds.

Call me a dummy. And me too.

They do, George. They call us dummies. We'll be right back.

You know, it doesn't take a degree in statistics to realize this one stinks. Ninety three percent of undergraduate private student loans are cosigned. So when you're delinquent and drowning, mom or papa or Uncle Joe is stuck in that financial stress along with you. But there is a way out. Why refi? Why refi offers a custom refinancing option with a fixed rate loan based on your ability to pay. And the average interest rate why refi offers is three point nine percent, which can significantly reduce your monthly payment and decrease your total cost. Contact why refi at 8442 Ramsey? or go to why refi? dot com slash Ramsey. That's 8442 Ramsey or the letter Y. Then r, e, f, y dot com slash Ramsey.

Why refi is not licensed by the California Department of Financial Protection and Innovation. Why refi is not authorized by the New York State Department of Financial?

Services to service any New York loans. Funding may not be available in all states.

Welcome back to the Ramsey show. I'm John Deloney, joined by George Campbell, 888-825-5225.. Campbell, not Campbell.

I heard Campbell. That's the most American name out there, George Campbell.

The B came out. I don't even know where it came from.

It happens to the best of us. Or, hey, come on. I call you John Baloney sometimes.

You do.

It happens. That one's on purpose, though.

That's on purpose. Let's go out to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and talk to Brittany. Hey, Brittany, what's going on?

Hi there. How are you?

Outstanding. How are you?

Good. I'm calling because my husband's employer, which is the federal government, is supposed to be relocating us.

Hold on. The way you said. that was incredible. My husband's employer, pause for disdain, the federal government. All right. What is your husband's employer done this time?

Okay. So they are relocating his department from Harrisburg, PA, to Columbus, Ohio. So he is currently making $88,000 a year. Even though we are in South Central Pennsylvania, the specific base he's on got, like, lumped in with the DC pay. So it's like this gem that everybody wants.

Low cost of living with an amazing salary.

Exactly. So. now they're wanting us to move to Columbus, Ohio, where the pay is less and the cost of living is higher. So he's currently at $88,000 a year. They're saying his supervisor is leaving. And so, in an effort to fill some voids, because not everybody is moving, they, um, are telling him that that would be perfect for him to move into that position. And so then, if he, if we were to move here and he were to start his supervisor's position, he would be making $91,000 a year. So it's not that big of a bump. just because of the, the pay here is obviously not as good. Um, so they're going to pay like relocation expenses, closing costs. And then they were also offering an incentive bonus of 25% of the salary, which is great. Um, we have a month to decide. They're supposed to give us the official letter any day, like anytime between today and June 30th.

Hey, Brittany.

Um, I, yes.

Do you want to live in Ohio?

I don't know.

That's the question here.

Oh, it's hard.

Do you have kids?

Like I, I, we do. We have two teenagers and they, I homeschool them and we're all open to it.

Um, Brittany, do you want to live in Ohio?

Uh, I don't know that that's, it's the unknown, that's scary.

I think you do know. You just don't want to say it out loud.

It sounds like you're trying to find a way on paper or Twitter that you're going, this doesn't make sense. We shouldn't do it when it's really just, I don't want to do it. And both are okay.

Well, here's the thing. We're on the same page. He's like, he's the one that said call. I'm like, we're in Ohio right now. He's here working for the week. And so we were on the way yesterday and he said, just call and let me know. Let's just see what they're thinking, because he has worked so hard to get to where he is. And I feel like, you know, every few years it seems like it's another little step back. And so we got this job two years ago and it's just tough. Like our house, we only owe about a hundred thousand on it. And we have such a low interest rate. And if we move here, we're going to be starting over on that.

Brittany, do you want to live in Ohio? Because if you don't, you owe it to yourself and you owe it to him to say that out loud. So that, from a foundation of honesty and a foundation of cool, let's figure out what's next. Y'all can make an informed decision together, because y'all said till death do us part, right?

What happens if he says no and he stays put?

So if he says no, they they will find him a position in the area. It might not be at that same base. So it could be at, you know, another one where the pay is, again, not going to be as good. And they have, I think it's up to a year. So, you know, he might end up on unemployment. I don't want him to leave the federal government. This is his goal for years. He applied it so many times over and over.

And so let's play out the other scenario. And what happens if you stay and your life becomes worse and you're resentful for those reasons? Oh, my gosh. He now makes $70,000, and this isn't fair. And is that a possibility? or he's unemployed and now he's got to find a new job versus the known.

There's so many elements.

I know. I know that's. that's where I'm trying to cut through it. You've got to let the money go. Y'all had a good run for two years. You got the golden goose for two years. That's gone now.

Yeah. I mean, we've known about this for a year, that this was coming, and so we've talked about every aspect and every scenario, and we feel like there's possibilities here and there's support at home. And so we're just torn 50-50..

Where'd you grow up?

My kids are open. I've lived in the same zip code my whole life.

In Pennsylvania? Yes. Okay. So does it scare you to leave?

A little bit, yeah.

Is there anything... A little bit? That would terrify me.

Are you excited at all about the prospect of like, oh, this is a new adventure for us, or is it all just sort of like, ugh?

I'm just, I'm torn right down the middle. I'm torn right down the middle.

You can make both of these scenarios be wonderful. Yep. You could have a great attitude and go, you know what? This can be a new adventure. It's going to be fun. We're going to be making more money. Sure. We'll have to find a new house. Cost of living. They're going to cover a lot of that, and it's going to be great. We'll get the house paid off. Here's our new goal. And you live a great life in Ohio.

And we're going to get into a homeschool consortium, and I'm going to make a bunch of new friends, and it's going to be awkward and weird, but I'm going to go do this because it's going to be a blast.

I'm going to make some new friends. Or you stay and you deal with whatever consequences come with that. Whether it be unemployment, a dip in pay, and we slow down our goals here. I think either way, you just have to be okay with whatever's next, based on the decision you make.

And what you choose to do with that decision. And can we just also, this is kind of a cool thing. What are the chances that within the next two to three years, something else gets moved or shifted or changed?

Well, this is, so. this would be the first time they moved. This is supposed to be the permanent location for this now, because, technically, Harrisburg isn't even in the district that they're at. So it didn't make sense. So they're moving. This is supposed to be it. It's not like it happens often.

Okay.

And I imagine his ceiling is higher moving into a supervisor role too, right?

Yeah.

So we got to also think about what that does for our financial future.

Right.

I know, but listen to me on this side, Brittany. As two guys who have worked really hard and have quote unquote, earned positions, which that's a whole other language conversation we could have later. I want my wife to be whole and happy. My life isn't just about what I've earned professionally. It's about the life my wife and I are creating and the life George and Whitney are creating. And so he can quote, unquote, earn any job he wants, but if his wife longs to be somewhere else, no job is worth that. So I think you have to sit down and be honest and say, I want to go and in on this, I'm going to go a hundred percent, or I don't want to go. I really want to stay here.

Make peace with whatever decision you do, man, then go.

make a good time out of it. This is the Ramsey show.

So here's a quick math refresher. There are only 24 hours in a day. So your business needs to streamline tasks that are time suckers and focus on activities that make money. So, to reduce headaches as they scale smart businesses, use NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud financial system. NetSuite helps you improve efficiency by bringing all your major business processes into one platform. So join the more than 37,000 smart businesses like Ramsey Solutions that have done the math and graduated to NetSuite. And right now you can download NetSuite's KPI checklist absolutely free at netsuite.com slash Ramsey. That's netsuite.com slash Ramsey.

Welcome back to the Ramsey show, 888-825-5225.. Let's go out to Dallas, Texas and talk to Alex. Hey, Alex, what's going on?

Hey guys, how's it going?

Outstanding brother. What's up?

So, um, my wife and I are about to, are going to wrap up baby step three in about a month, month and a half. And so, as we look forward, we are sort of split between saving up for a house or maybe saving up, uh, to start a business.

Exciting. What are you guys doing now for work?

So right now, uh, I work in HR for an electricity provider and she, uh, works in HR compliance for an auditor.

Beautiful. Love in HR. We got, we love to see it. Okay. What's your household income?

About 145 pre-tax.

Amazing. And what is the business you want to start?

We want to start a coffee cart business, essentially serving, uh, coffee to, uh, weddings, most likely on the weekends. We wouldn't like to let go of our week, uh, weekday jobs.

Okay. And what is it going to cost to start this business?

We're estimating probably like 20, 25..

For the actual cart itself?

For the entire thing, cart, espresso machine, and you know, the, essentially initial investment.

Okay. And how long have you guys been married?

Uh, we're about to hit two years in August.

Fun. And you're renting right now. What is the urgency to buy a house in Dallas, Texas? Is that feasible?

That's the thing. Like when, when you, when we look at what we can afford with our budget, it's, we either have to buy something that is a little bit on the older side when it comes to a home, or we would have to go way off into, uh, either East or West, uh, too far from our jobs. Um, and yeah, it would make our commutes, uh, a little too long in our opinion.

Okay. Well, I don't think these are mutually exclusive. I think you can start to attack both. And so one thing I would do is set a down payment goal and then make sure you guys are sticking to that. And on the other side, any leftover money, because we're not going to put a hundred percent of our margin toward that is, let's start saving up for this coffee cart to pay cash for it.

After investing 50%, uh, we'd be looking at maybe 2000,, maybe, uh, uh, 2,500..

Okay. So let's say 25 K a year. So one route you could go is, all right, for the first year, we're not going to save up for a house. We're going to continue renting. And in one year, we're going to have the money to start this coffee cart business.

Yeah. Yeah. It just, whenever we look at houses, it just, you know, whenever we think about the investment, it doesn't seem as exciting at the moment, just with interest rates and again, just our purchasing power right now is not a, it doesn't excite us, at least from the houses that we've looked at.

That makes sense.

And George, I had a buddy one time. and, um, Alex, I'm going to ask George a question on your behalf. It's more of a global question. I had a buddy one time. This is years ago. I was going back and forth whether I was going to buy a house or not buy a house. And it was a small house. It's all I could afford, and this and that. And I kept running these investment numbers and it was like, well, if I rent here and then 36 months here, the math just never came out. And one day a buddy of mine who works in finance said, um, real, emphatically, dude, buy your wife a home. And I looked at him and I was like, yeah, but look at the, and he interrupted me. And he is the most ROI guy I know. He said, get your family a home.

No, not at all. Okay. I just, you know, everyone had different values, and it sounds like Alex and his wife, they're, they've been married two years, the home, isn't the thing that they're like racing toward right now. Right. They have these, you know, while you're young, before you have kids, let's start this coffee cart business. Remember when we did that? So it feels like that's where you guys are leaning. Um, and you can also, you know, change your aim and go, all right, we're going to get a condo in the next. Two years. And that's going to mean this much down payment. And we're going to use the coffee cart money to also throw the down payment, which will speed up the process. So you can think about it as a, as not separate things, but one thing that will help the other.

Alex, have y'all done the math? Like I'm sure I've done on the back of a napkin, but have y'all done like. Grownup business math on this coffee cart business. What do you think you're going to make?

We, um, we would expect to probably bring at least first year. Um, I mean, we'd be looking around maybe a thousand, a thousand per, uh, per event. If we're working one Saturday, I mean, that would be around 12,000.. And again, we're not in a hurry to start this and, you know, uh, go all off and quit our day jobs, but we're passionate about coffee and would like to start that. and maybe, you know, what we're thinking is that it could potentially give us more money to cut towards, uh, a down payment for a home, but, uh, yeah, we, we've looked at the numbers, definitely a napkin math, but we should, we could probably dive in a little bit more.

Well, in the, in the, I had a buddy who was really passionate about barbecue. Really. I mean, it was the best cook there was. in that passion became starting a restaurant. And being really passionate about barbecue was different than being a passionate restauranteur. Right. And being really passionate about coffee. We love coffee. We like sourcing it. We like making our own. We like sharing it with our friends. That's one thing. running a business that's going to be all Friday nights and Saturday nights and Sundays for indefinitely. That's a different type of passion, right? And so I think it's just navigating. which passion is, is the real passion. And, as George said, in what order, right? When we look up in three years, do we want to have a thriving coffee cart business? And if that was to be true, how much money would make that thriving? Or do we want to have a home? and what would that look like? And where would it have to be? in the DFW market, which is chaos, like every other market in America right now, those are some great questions. If you had to flip a coin, Alex, and you could have the coffee cart business of your dreams or a home, what would you, what would you pick right now?

Oh, man. Um, I think the first thing that came to mind was, was a home. and, and, uh, Don, that's something that, you know, I think we've been so focused on, like, what will be a return on our investment, right? What will be better for our money? But emotionally, maybe we haven't had, we haven't been having those conversations.

I think we have a new conversation. Sit down with your wife and go, okay, what really is the priority right now? And can the coffee cart business way? And can we do the coffee cart business sooner and cheaper? And instead we just rent the espresso machine and we get a nice folding table with some cool decor around it. And we don't have to go buy a, you know, a mobile trailer for a coffee cart right now.

And we'll do the $500 weddings instead of the thousand dollar and start small.

Maybe you do the first one for free for some friends and, you know, you take some cool pictures and put that on a little website and you just start small and start sooner while saving up for the down payment. I feel like that would give me more peace from moving toward both.

And George, I've got entrepreneur friends who would rather set themselves on fire than buy a house. Like they are too busy trying to start a thing and then start a business.

I don't have to worry about a house and the maintenance and the repairs.

I'll sleep under, under a tree. I'm, I want to start a business. And so I love that. Alex is going to shift the question from what's the best investment, what's the best ROI. It's what's the life that we want to create two years into our new marriage. Do we want to be a, uh, entrepreneurial couple that's going to build businesses together and we're going to start with a coffee and then one day we're gonna have a wedding planning business, whatever, or do we want to look up in three years and be well on our way to paying off a kind of old house, but it's ours and we'll fix it up over time or we'll upgrade when the time's right. Um, those, that's a different set of questions. Then, what are we passionate about and what's the best ROI right now? And I love getting to that. What's the real question behind, behind the spreadsheet.

There you go.

Yeah, that's a good question.

That's a good conversation.

Every once in a while, people need to actually use this bridge.

I think everyone has those dreams. It's like, I want to do the house, but I also want X, Y, Z, or I'm.

really passionate about music. You don't have to quit everything. Right. Or what does that, what does that mean? What's the, what's, what's the question behind that?

I love coffee. I'm not trying to make money off of it. I'm not smart.

You do consume enough to where your heart one day will explode, right down there. And we'll see it from space. That's it for this hour. America. We'll be back soon, right here on the Ramsey show.

Hey, what's up? What up?

What are we doing?

Um, I just had a couple of questions about how to get out of credit card debt and kind of stay afloat with mine and my husband's, um, fluctuating income.

All right, bring it on. What's going on?

So we have 22, $2,300 worth of credit card debt. Um, which is a big hurdle that we have right now. However, it's super hard to pay it off, considering that our incomes fluctuate so much. He could bring home anywhere from $1,600 to $4,000 a month. And I can bring home anywhere from $1,400 to $1,600 a month.

What do y'all do?

Um, he works for a warehouse here in town. Um, but the pay is competitive and it's based off of work, and the attendance bonus can either double or cut your check in half, depending on if you were there the entire time, or if you had to miss a day for any reason. And I work for UPS.

Okay. So if he shows up to work, he'll make $4,000?.

It, yeah. So, among other things, like, it's based off of hourly, so it starts at $15 an hour and the attendance bonus is an extra $5 an hour.

So why wouldn't, I don't understand why it's not like school. I mean, just stay there. Why would you lose that?

Well, I mean, for instance, he missed a day a month ago because I had to call 9-1-1 for our son.

Well, that's different.

So we had to leave work to come pop out.

But yeah, that's not the everyday occurrence, but that's a once in a year or two or five. that would, that would happen.

Yes. But it still affects the attendance bonus.

Okay. So if you miss one day, you, you lose the whole month with the attendance bonus?

It's paid every two weeks, but yes, it can cut your check in half or it can double it depending on your attendance.

Okay. Are you working full-time?

I work part-time at UPS and we have it set that way. I work in the mornings and he works in the afternoon to late at night, so that we can avoid having to pay for child care.

Okay. How many kids do you have?

We have two.

All right. And outside of the $2,300 in credit card debt, what other debt do you have?

He had, um, he had to get a truck, and I say had to, because his car before was just breaking on us constantly. We ended up spending like $2,000 to fix it in January, and that would have paid for three months worth of a truck payment. It wasn't reliable.

Wasn't really what's left on the truck loan.

It's $23,000..

So he chose to get a $23,000 truck loan. Okay. What else?

And then I have $2,000 worth of student loan debt.

Okay. And that's everything?

Yes, that's everything.

All right. So, all in all, we're about, we'll call it $27,000 in debt. Yes. What's your household income for the year? If you added it all up.

Um, I think when we filed our taxes, it was 67,000 last year.

Okay. All right. So we're trying to get out of $27,000 worth of debt. We make 67.. How much margin could you guys have if you got on a every dollar budget and you said, Hey, anything, that's not food, shelter, utilities, transportation, insurance, we are not going to spend money on it. How much money could you have to throw at the debt?

Uh, I mean, on a good month where he makes 4,000, probably a thousand dollars a month.

Okay. So a thousand dollars a month times 27 months means you're debt-free in a little over two years, if you can throw a thousand, right?

Yeah.

Now, what if we could find a way where we could spend less and make more in, where we could put 2000 a month, then we could pay it off in about a year. Right.

Yeah.

Now we're talking. That sounds a whole lot better to me. If we're going to sacrifice.

Right.

So that's where the budget comes into play. We look at the budget and we say, here's how much we're going to bring in this month. Here's what our expenses are. Every other penny is going to go toward our smallest balanced debt. Have you tried that yet?

We have, I did financial peace university when I was 14 and every two years since. And so I've, we're still on baby step number one, like we're just trying to get a savings account. And every time we get something put back, we get a flat tire. Or, you know, the catalytic converter goes out in the car, or our room floods from the bathroom. Like it's just one thing after another. And we cannot get past baby step number one.

I know, but Kelly, you went out and bought a 20 something thousand dollar truck.

So you have enough to cover a car payment.

No, y'all did. Y'all did.

Did he do this behind your back?

No. I advised him not to. I advised. if he was going to get a car, it needed to be something more affordable.

Um, George, I don't want to put you on blast, but your, your Tesla didn't cost. No, George is a millionaire and he doesn't drive a car that expensive. And again, my truck isn't near that expensive. I, I, I want you to hear a say like.

Anytime. a guy says I had to buy a truck, he is lying.

Unless. he is like a lineman.

And anytime he convinces his wife that he had to buy a truck, he's an amazing salesman.

But here's the thing.

Like, at some point we have to decide that life's not going to just happen to us anymore. And it does take a while to get out of the cycle, Kelly. Cause, I'm telling you, like, I remember when I was broke, it was like Murphy wants to just live with me and go like, Hey buddy, I know you're trying to get out of debt, but here's a little emergency. Have fun with this. And at some point we have to go no longer. Are we going to let life control us? We're going to have agency and autonomy over what happens next. And that might mean we sell the truck.

And here's a deeper issue. I am not going to work at a place that if I have to go take my son to a hospital, that I lose half of my in my income for the month. I refuse. I'm not going to be held hostage.

We live in a really small town. That's one of the best jobs that are here, but he is still applying for other jobs.

Okay, good. Cause, I don't want to be held hostage that way. I'd rather work at Walmart throwing boxes for 20 bucks an hour.

That's stable.

And it's stable. It will always be there. And it's, it, you might not want to say I work at Walmart, but I tell you what, the job's going to keep being there and they're going to keep paying you 20 bucks and they're going to pay you overtime if you keep working hard. And you can always count on that. But your original call is how do we even get out of debt when our, our income fluctuates by 50% in certain, in certain weeks or certain months. And you need stability as much as you need more money. Do you have, you live in a small town. Do you have anybody that can watch your kids for a few hours a day?

Um, my friend from Missouri just moved in and, um, she's helped out a little bit. So we also do like Walmart delivery. We do DoorDash. I bake on the side for extra income, but here lately it's only making up from what he's lost in attendance bonuses.

Okay. Well, the deal with a regular income is in that budget, if you have a regular income for anyone listening, you're going to start with the four walls. Food, utility, shelter, transportation. That gets paid first. If you make more than that, then we're going to cover the rest of the bills that need to get paid. But luxuries are out until this debt is gone. And I think he needs to strongly consider selling this truck and driving a beater truck for now. Uh, cause we got to swallow our pride while we're getting our family to stability. And that's going to hurt. He's not going to like it. And I hope he doesn't come fight me, cause I'm sure he could take me in a fight. So if he asked, John said it.

I'll, I'll say it. Sell the truck, man. And your family. stability is way more important than looking fancy driving down the road. This is the Ramsey show.

I've been doing this show for over 30 years. And some of the saddest calls I've taken are from situations that are completely preventable. Yeah.

And what's so hard is I feel like one of those, especially the ones that I'm like, oh, it's terrible air people that call in and their spouse has passed away suddenly. And they don't have life insurance. When you have to think through how am I going to pay my bills in the middle next week, in the middle of all that grief, like it's just, it is, it's terrible. It's a life insurance is the one thing, especially as a mom with three little kids, that I'm like so big on for people to get, because it's inexpensive. Xander is the place that Winston and I actually get all of our life insurance.

And it doesn't cost much, because Xander shops among a gazillion different companies. It doesn't cost much. You just have to admit that someday you're not going to be here. You got to say it out loud. And you've got to say, I'm going to say, I love you to my family by taking care of them and taking the time to put this stuff in place. The cost of stinking pizza. to get a free quote, call 800-356-4282. that's 800-356-4282, or go to xander.com.

Welcome back to the Ramsey show. One of the greatest ways you can support your neighbors, making sure they get financial information that can change their life. Costs no money. You don't even have to talk to your neighbors. You don't even have to be that weird. All you have to do is like the show, subscribe to the show, leave a five-star review. And it kicks the show up in the algorithms of the YouTubes and the podcasts and wherever else you consume the show. And it puts it in front of more people. More people get the life changing wisdom of don't spend more than you make, or the life changing wisdom of I don't buy a house or a car that you can't afford. And don't wait on the government to bail you out. Just wild, new, fangled wisdom like that.

Controversial.

Controversial. Highly controversial. All that and more. How dare you? 888-825-5225.. Let's roll out to Minneapolis and talk to the great and powerful Lance.

Hey, Lance.

Hey man, how's it going?

Great. What's up?

Oh, not a whole lot. Just a couple of questions. Been listening to you guys for a few months. I like and agree with everything, but I'm in a weird situation because I can't get past baby step six because I don't own a home. We've been renting. My wife and I have been married for seven and a half years and we've been renting for seven and a half years. We were kind of waiting for house prices to go down and they never did. So I ended up starting a business with my sister. She lives in Iowa and we buy, I bought like three condos with her that are rentals and also bought a place with her down in Yuma, Arizona. They winter there. And so I have four paid for, um, income producing properties. I have a couple hundred thousand dollars in the bank. Um, my wife and I both make a good income. She makes around a hundred grand. I make around a hundred grand. I'm self-employed. She has a 401k that she pays. 6% of the company matches 6%. So we're sitting in a good spot. Here's my dilemma. I want to continue to grow by rental properties. I want to buy like a duplex, move into half of it, pay it off in a couple of years or less, and then buy our dream home. She, every house I show her, she obviously doesn't want to live with anybody. She doesn't want to rent out any part of it. And the median house price in Minneapolis, St. Paul, we live on the outskirts is probably close to 400,000.. Right now we rent and we get a great deal. We probably live in a four or $500,000 house and we pay 2150 a month, which isn't terrible. It's not breaking the bank. We're able to save every month. And obviously I'm able to grow my rentals, but I know that I'm sitting here wasting time paying that $2,100 every month.

Lance, can I say something controversial?

Yeah, I'm about to say it too.

You want to grow your rentals more than you want to grow your marriage.

Get your wife a home.

Like, when is she going to, you've been married eight years.

Get your wife a home.

I told her 10.. I said at 10 years, you buy whatever house you want.

But you guys have the money.

Get her a home. Today. Today.

I think she wins. Okay. What kind of house does she want? Let's talk about the house she wants.

Well, this is more fun.

She wants an expensive house, man. I know she does.

But you are caring for four other families more than your own.

What are your properties worth altogether?

So they're condos in Iowa. They're worth around $90,000 a piece. Okay. And the one in Arizona, we just bought it for $130,000.. But that one's probably, I think we're coming into it with a little bit of equity, maybe $10,000, $15,000..

So you have over half a million dollars in investment properties.

Well, I got half of a half a million dollars. My sister and her husband own the other half. So yeah, I have a few hundred thousand. It's probably $230,000 to $250,000..

And how much do you have in cash?

$200,000 plus.

And you would be uncomfortable putting down $200,000 on a $500,000 home?

Yeah, because the $300,000 at that interest rate, you're still looking at like a $2,800, $3,000 payment.

What's your take-home pay after taxes, but before other deductions, like investing in healthcare? What would your take-home pay be?

You'll make $200,000 a year.

Yeah, it's probably like $9,000, $10,000 a month.

Okay, let's say it's $10,000 a month. We'll take 25% of that. That's going to go toward the mortgage. So $2,500, let's say, is the max, right?

Well, toward the mortgage? Yeah, I don't know what the math works out to at $300,000, probably $2,500, $2,800, yeah.

Well, all I'm saying is you go fine. Now we know, okay, our goal is $2,500 payment on a 15-year fixed rate mortgage. That's what we're going to do. Well, now we have the home price and down payment numbers to go, all right, if we put $200,000 down, we can afford a $420,000 home. And so it's less about Lance's emotions versus her emotions, and it's based on a parameter we agreed on. And then we're going to do it when the math makes sense.

And, by the way, retirement and taxes take up $80,000?.

She does pay a lot towards her HSA, she kind of taps that out, so we have that. And then I'm self-employed, so some months I bring home a lot, and other months I bring home not as much.

What about the rental income? I mean, is that not counting?

Yeah, the rental, no, that's not counting the rental income, I didn't even put that in there.

Well, where's that going?

The rental income right now is probably around $1,500 a month, my portion that I bring home.

Have you done the math?

Where's that money going?

Hold on, have you done the math on how much this divorce is going to cost you?

I'm just saying, if we were patient for two years, we would have another duplex.

before, and we'd be moving in cash. Babe, I just got an amazing deal on this investment property, so I'm going to put the money towards that. But next year, babe, it's going to be your year.

I already tried that, that doesn't work.

No, get your wife a home. Tell your wife, hey, listen, take her out to dinner tonight with some flowers and tell her, I want you to have a spreadsheet and I want you to put it on the table. And if you're really romantic, I want you to hang it over like the little candle and let it just burn up and let the spreadsheet burn up and say, I love you. And I have turned our marriage into a ROI, and it should be an. I love you. Ooh, that sounds kind of good. Me?

No, I'm driving a 2003 regular cab Chevy pickup with 181,000 miles on it to save up all this money.

Listen, America, listen, it's the world's smallest violin. Nobody cares.

What does she drive, Lance?

Buy yourself a car.

What does she drive?

She said I could buy a car, I just can't buy a duplex.

Oh, jeez. Well, you know why? Because somebody else lives in there with you. Oh, my gosh. You watch way too much Instagram. Dude, get your wife a home.

I was going to let her listen to this episode, but now I can't.

We'll make sure she listens.

Hey, it's already in the record. So when y'all go to court, it's going to get played anyway.

Lance, you know what. you can't put an ROI on? The joy on her face when you tell her, honey, we're going to buy a house. We're going to buy a house. Not for someone else.

Let's go shopping. For us. Let's go house shopping.

Let's go house shopping.

No, even better, let her go house shopping. You have been house shopping. That's great.

Because you're going to make it miserable. You're going to go, no way. I can find a much cheaper house.

Let's go to Tile Depot. Let's go to the Tile Depot outlet warehouse and see if we can get that same tile. Dude, just get your wife a house. Get a house. Dude, you have done an amazing job. You're crushing it. How old are you?

Forty-five.

Amazing. Thirty-eight. It's amazing.

And she's never owned a home.

So I don't want to do three.

See, you're laughing. You know how expensive divorce is. All right. Get her a house.

Get her a house. Has she ever owned a house?

Nope.

And she's 38 years old.

Only the rentals. Yeah. She's never owned one.

And you guys make 200 grand and you have 200 grand in the bank. Are you seeing what I'm seeing?

My tax guy tells me to buy a house. My tax guy tells me to buy a house every year.

Wow. You know why? Because he knows how expensive divorce is. He sees some things, Lance.

Oh man. We're having fun with you, Lance. I want to see you win. I want to see your marriage win. And part of that, which is hard for guys like us, Lance, because we love doing the math and the ROI, but you know who doesn't care about that is the person who loves you the most in this whole wide world. They want a great life with Lance. And at some point they just don't care about another investment property that'll bring in another 300 bucks a month. They just want a place to call their own.

And, at the end of the day, often people want to know, do you love me more than golf? Do you love me more than your business? Do you love me more than the spreadsheet? Do you love me more than the good deal on the duplex? That we can move in and someone else can live next door to us and listen to house music all night long, whatever the thing is, buy her a house and you better. let her listen to this episode, my friend. This is the Ramsey show.

I live to just track the next transaction.

I feel like your heart rate just goes up 10 beats a.

Sometimes I just look at it. I should admire it.

Like. I heard you the other day and you were just like, oh man. And I looked over and like you had your budget out. You're just like all, excited. Anyway, the best way to make the most of your money is by creating and sticking to a monthly budget, whether you like it or not. Every dollar makes it simple to plan, spending, track expenses and save for what matters most. All of this is in an easy to use app that fits into your busy lifestyle. Every dollar has saved my feeble attempts at making really complicated 75 tab spreadsheets. It kind of calls out all my bull crap and all my excuses and just puts it right there in front of my face.

One keystroke and your, your formula got blown up and it's like, hashtag ref. And I'm like, I don't know what's happening. Get me out of the spreadsheet.

Well, no, that works, but it just allows me to be like, well, you know, like in five years, if we do this and we triple, stay with double stamp, that just how much did you spend this month versus what you said you were going to.

Can I tell you anyone, any spouse that uses the spreadsheet, your spouse doesn't want to look at it. You're the only one in the family versus every dollar. It's loaded up on your phone. You can both just tap in. You have the accountability. No one has to look at a spreadsheet again.

And there is some comfort slash accountability, depending on which side of this you fall on, that. if you and you and your spouse tie yourselves to the same, every dollar account, um, or connect with the every dollar account, when you spend, she knows when she spends, you know, and you don't have to blame each.

other. You can just call your budget, Derek, and say, Oh, classic, Derek. Am I right? That's not really how he said. We can't goes in my house, but no, no, just Sheila says John stop.

Yes, exactly. So download every dollar for free. It doesn't cost any money in the app store or the Google play store. Is that right? The Google play store.

Yeah, that sounded right. You made it sound wrong, but I think it's definitely right.

Go to the Google play store or the app store today, right now, and download every dollar for free. Let's go out to Rochester, New York, and talk to Mitch. Hey, what's up, Mitch?

Hey guys, how we doing?

Outstanding brother. What's up?

So, uh, my wife and I are drowning a little bit, uh, in debt.

Tell us about it, man.

Yeah. So we both have, um, advanced degrees. Uh, we're looking at about 400,000 in a student debt and then, uh, about 200 on a mortgage. Um, and essentially, uh, the interest on my loan, um, comes out to about 1500 every month. and, uh, kind of the thing that's slowing us down to make any progress, so it's kind of putting us in a paycheck to paycheck situation.

Are you guys using both degrees?

Yeah. Yeah. We're both, uh, practicing chiropractors.

Awesome. What's the household income?

About one 20..

That feels low. It early.

Yeah. We're both early in our careers. Um, so there's definitely room for growth. Um, but yeah, we're still in the first kind of, are you working?

for another practice right now?

Yeah. Both of us are at separate practices, as, uh, associates.

Can you work on? do private practice on Saturdays and Sundays, or is that a violation of your contract?

Yeah, that's a no-go.

So I hate to tell you this, but as a guy who's got advanced degrees, who ran up a bunch of student debt, you're going to have to do the job that you get to feel prestigious about. And you're going to have to do a bunch of other work on the side. Cause you, because that 1500 bucks, dude, that's, that's, that's net neutral. Right. You're spinning your wheels. You're going nowhere.

Right.

How did this happen? And how'd y'all borrow 400 grand to be chiropractors?

Well, so, uh, tuition is about, uh, one 50 or so. Um, so, you know, between that and living expenses, um, that's kind of where it adds up.

But how'd you end up taking jobs for $60,000 a piece?

Uh, I could, I could talk your ear off all day long, uh, about the ins and outs of why, uh, chiros don't get paid. Um, but New York tends to be one of the bad States for it.

And, um, was it time for y'all to move?

Maybe we just bought a house. It's the, yeah, I know.

But you owe more than half a million dollars in debt.

Oh yeah.

And you, you know that, but I just want to say it out loud and you make 60 grand a year.

Right.

That's a scary reality, right?

Oh yeah.

So this is going to look different. Now, our friend, Jade Warshaw, her and her husband, Sam Warshaw, they paid off $468,000 in seven years. So your journey is going to look more like that than the average baby stepper, who's like, I paid off my debt in two years. So we need to figure out what it looks like to at least pay off your debt with an aggressive timeline. Let's say, if it's seven years, that's 57 K a year, which means all of one of your gross incomes would need to be going toward the debt, which I don't think you guys can do right now. Right. With your minimum payments, your mortgage. So we need to figure out how to get the income up in order to pay off this debt in an aggressive timeline. And that the only way to do that is by spending less and making more. So one option is you sell the house, you rent to alleviate, at least that, that mortgage weighing you guys down, and you go work every single weekend and one of you is working one night, the other one's switching off. Do you guys have kids?

Yeah, we got one little guy.

Okay. And what's childcare look like?

Uh, 300 a week.

Okay. That's not too bad for daycare. Yeah. Okay. So that's just going to be part of our budget. Are you guys doing an every dollar budget right now?

Uh, we're kind of on the start of that right now.

Okay. I'll help you out. I'll give you every dollar premium. So it connects to your bank account, has some really cool extra features like paycheck, planning, financial roadmap. So hang on the line when we're done and we'll gift that to you guys to help you on this journey. and it will be a journey, but the only way is we got to get this income way up in order to knock out, you know, 40, 50, 60 grand a year from the student loans instead of two grand a month.

But you even realize that 50 to 60,000 a year is the bare minimum, right?

Uh, surprisingly, no, uh, it gets a lot worse than that.

Tell me about it.

Uh, so, I mean, I've got colleagues who are making 20, 30 a year, um, around the same area. So, um, how is that possible?

I know what I pay my chiropractor. How's that possible?

I wish I knew. Um, but it seems to be the reality. Um, unless you're in a separate state, taking a salary, a large part of it is, uh, a lot of our salaries, uh, based on volume. Um, so if you're seeing a lower number of patients earlier in your career, um, you're not making as much as, say, someone who's seeing double your volume.

But why would you, why would you sign up with a practice if they're not handing you clients? That's what you trade, right? You trade the full, the full weight of the payment for a steady stream of clients.

Right. Yeah. We're, uh, but specifically we're a newer practice, so everyone's growing. Um, I think there's definitely been some learning curves.

Um, is there another practice you could go join? Did you sign a contract where you have to stay a certain amount of time, or what?

Yeah, I'm locked in here and I feel pretty passionate about the people I'm with. Um, like I said, I do think there is room for growth. Um, and I, I know there's a handful of other practices in the area, um, that I've looked at might not have been a better fit for, um, so part of it, I guess, comes down to my morals and how I'm willing to practice.

No, I don't think that's it, man. I don't think you're man. Maybe I'm crazy, Mitch, but, and again, I've just, I just spent my whole career sitting with medical professionals. I'm, don't think you're, I don't think you're getting it. You want to have like, I've got these morals, man. You also have a moral responsibility to pay off your debts. You have a moral responsibility to be a present father in your home and a husband, and you can't do that when you owe half a million dollars and there's this sense of, well, it's just the way this is in this town. Well then, sometimes, throughout human history, people have gotten on a boat because the farm wasn't, wasn't producing, and they went across the world, right? There's. sometimes you have to get up and just go, do a radical thing. If, and if it's going to grow, then somebody is going to have to just do wild things like work late at night. And we're the only practice open on Saturdays and Sundays. And we work from 4 PM until midnight, because that's when people get off of work. Y'all gonna have to get radical about developing a different kind of practice. So y'all can make more money than these other just meandering practices in the neighborhood. And so, if you're going to go do this, man, you got to go all in like. your life depends on it, because it does. You can't just go, Oh, it only makes 60 grand. That's just the market in this area. That kind of ad, like it just is, you know, like? I could tell you why they don't pay. No, go, make it happen. Go, make it happen. There's gotta be a sense of urgency and almost not panic, but almost panic. I'm going to go. make this happen for me and my family. Let's go.

I could tell you got a little fired up, but I know, I also know, as someone you've experienced, you know, high levels of student loan debt, getting advanced degrees, and the heartbreaking part is the ROI. It almost feels like, I mean, they're literally getting scammed. to go $400,000 into student loan debt to make 60 or a hundred boggles my mind.

Yeah, I, I get that. And here's the challenge. I think the, um, I think, when you graduate with a advanced degree, there's just this feeling that now the world is going to open up to me and I've experienced it a couple of times, right? Like now I can kind of do whatever I want.

That's tough. Well, I hope everyone who is about to get a degree, you have a kid, you're a parent, go watch Borrowed Future, our award-winning documentary. It's free on YouTube. It's at about 88 minutes. and the stories in there, there's some heartbreaking ones and there's some inspiring ones. I remember that the dentist who had a million dollars into debt and hearing him, the tears and the shriek of pain in his voice is haunting. And it makes me go, let's triple check and make sure this is going to be worth, the juice is worth the squeeze on this.

All right. Today's question of the day comes from Beth in Indiana.

Here's what Beth has to say. Our oldest daughter ran away after high school graduation to live an alternative lifestyle that we don't approve of. She hasn't spoken to us in three years, though we've tried to contact her. We have some savings in life insurance, about 5 million and need to make a will, as we have nothing in place right now. We have three other children that are responsible and trying to live God honoring lives. Would you include a child in your will that refuses to have a relationship with you? We aren't quite sure how to handle this. We love her dearly, of course, but also don't want to support her lifestyle. Is there a fair way to deal with this?

I mean, there's a lot of, I don't really know what. this, what she's talking about here.

So, um, you don't agree with your child's decisions, morally, ethically, financially, whatever they're doing, the relationship is strained. Do you still leave them in the will?

I mean, I guess it's depends on how you look at your will. Is your will a, um, a reward for a job, a, a, a, a childing? well done, right? Is it a, an investment in the future of your legacy? Like, what are you using your will for? Um, and I think that's question number one. Question number two is, it doesn't sound like Beth has understood that, um,

I'm between a rock and a hard place here. Cause, on one hand I'm like, okay, don't put them in the will. That's your prerogative. You're not a bad person. And on the other hand, I'm just like thinking of the prodigal son story. Have you know, the dad watching his son come on over the hill and he's, he's so excited, he's throwing the party, the feast, my son is home. We don't know that there's going to be a happy ending like that here. We just don't know. But I want to have that open, handed spirit that says, this is not a one and done final thing. Right. And that you're still fighting for this relationship, but you're also not going to chase him down, you know, and shove it down their throat. So, and I hope the relationship's repaired and that there's a beautiful, happy ending and she gets back in the will, but I don't think it really matters at this point, because the relationship does not exist.

I can just tell you, George, um, I cannot count dozens, maybe hundreds, but for sure, dozens of conversations I've had with parents over the years, of college students and young adults who have come back in older years and said, I would do anything to have those conversations back, to have my judgments back, because I just want my kid. And sometimes we go to war over, I told you not to borrow money. So you won't come home until you have that credit card or whatever else thing you write. My three kids are great, but it's you because you, whatever. I'm telling you, man, the number of families that have come back and said, I would do anything to have those conversations back and let my kid know that I love them. I don't agree with them. I think you're a knucklehead as long as you're safe, right? If you're not being safe, that's a whole other conversation, right? Um, or if you're struggling with addiction, that's a whole other conversation.

And that's the part we don't know. But what is this alternative lifestyle? Is she blowing this money on drugs? I have no idea.

But here's the deal. Um, when it comes to your will, it's, it's your money. You decide what you want to use it for and what this, um, your $5 million is for. Um, I want to tell all parents out there, don't use your inheritance to buy,

That's the part that, the part that irked me was that we have three other children that are responsible and trying to live God honoring lives. I'm like, well, now it's a competition of, of morals. and who makes mom the proudest, which that part feels weird to me.

Yeah, it's tough.

It's a very personal thing. I can't decide for you. I just know I'd want to be open-handed, trying to repair the relationship, and who knows how much money you'll actually have. when you, you know, hit the dusty trail, celebrities have said, you know, Steve Harvey's like me and your mom are going to spend every dime we got. You ain't getting none of this. You know, that's, that's fine. You know, Guy Fieri said the same thing. He's like, I'm, I'm going to spend all the money. I'm going to let, make sure that you're a responsible adult who knows how to make their own wealth, but I'm going to spend what I've made or give it away to charities I believe in, you know? So I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do it. Um, but I, I do think you've got to, but let's go to this question.

Would you, would you include a child in your will that refuses to have a relationship with you? Um, it happens, but it's very rare that that is a one-sided choice. Usually, somebody chooses to not have a relationship with their parents because their parents have put stipulations on that relationship that they are opting out of. Right? So it's actually a kid putting up a boundary saying, if this is your requirement for you to love me, I get the message I'm out, right? And so, um, what? I include a child in my will that refuses to have a relationship with me, depending on whether that money would contribute to their premature death, um, I would. Yes. Because it's about me loving my kid, but that's me. And my hope is I never get to the situation, and I know it happens all. I mean, it's been my whole career, but this is heartbreaking. Um, what about you, George?

I got a nine month old. It's heartbreaking to think about not having, not having a relationship. What she just said, dad, dad said her first words the other day. I'm like, I cannot imagine one day where she's like, I want nothing to do with you. I would be so heartbroken. I think the will would be the last thing on my mind at that point.

Um, but it's heartbreaking, but even my, my son's, one of the most amazing young men I know. he's 14.. And I asked him recently, I said, Hey, um, as we're going into high school, when you reach age X, I want to take just you and me anywhere you want to go in the country.

You become the child at that point.

That's exactly right. Then I start putting stipulations on that instead of me going, man, that bums me out. But cool, man. I know you love your friends. And me. having reconciled that, I'm raising young man who is going to separate from his dad over time.

It's tough man. What a journey.

They didn't come in the manual on this one. This is the Ramsey show. We'll be back shortly.

That's me.

I think that's us, but that's cool. And we're great at grammar. Triple eight, eight, two, five, five, two, two, five. Let's go out to St. Louis, Missouri and talk to J O E. What's up, Joe?

Hi, um, how are you?

I'm outstanding brother. How are you?

I'm doing well. Thank you.

Um, you bet. What's up?

So my future. So my, uh, my situation, um, I, my wife and I have been aggressively paying off debt this year. We had a plan to pay off all of our debt in 2024.. And, uh, the issue, though, that we're having kind of midway through the year.

Oh, Joe, we lost you.

Let's turn back on Joe here, brother. Joe, you there?

Can you, can you hear me?

There we go. All right. Now we're back. Continue. Continue. Go ahead.

All right. Sorry. Um, so I've got a couple of life changes coming up. My wife and I were paying off debt and, uh, we just found out a, uh, a few weeks ago that we're expecting a baby.

All right. I take that back. I'm just kidding. No, that's good. That's awesome.

So, and along with that, I'm looking in about a year to have a career change. And so my question, I guess, is how aggressively should I continue pay off debt, because I really want to pay off the debt this year. However, I understand, like the stork mode concepts, but I feel like we may have enough income that we could do both. And so I'm just trying to figure out what priorities are.

Yeah, you're right about stork mode. for those listening, wondering what the heck that is. When you're having a baby and you're in baby step two, that's when it's okay to pause and just keep minimum payments. Don't put anything extra and just stack up cash in a savings account until mom and baby are home and healthy. And so that's okay to do. How much money do you guys have right now in the bank?

Barely any. And this is why I think we may have, I don't want to say maybe went too hard. Earlier this month, I looked at my bank account and we had about $1,300 total.

So how long have you guys been living paycheck to paycheck like this?

Not basically this year, since we started paying off debt. All of our savings.

But have you been in debt since you've been married?

Um, not, not the entire time. So we had all debts paid off a few years ago, but then both of my cars were totaled, and my family car and my personal car that I take to work. So we, um, then had to get new cars and we got, you walked to the dealership.

and said, give me your most expensive cars stat.

No, no, no, no, no. I was able to put a significant amount of money down. I have one car paid off already. And the only debt we have left is $28,000 on a, um, on a minivan. All right. So that's, that's everything we got left.

So 28K on the minivan. And when is baby due?

20,000..

20,000.. When's baby due?

Baby's due end of January.

Okay. So we have some time. What's your household income?