I Went to Couples Therapy (ft. Orna Guralnik) [VIDEO]
2024-06-05 01:02:54
The most-listened to podcast by women. Alex Cooper’s Call Her Daddy has been creating conversation since 2018. Cooper cuts through the BS with topics and guests - asking the burning questions you want the answers to. There will be laughter, there will be tears. There will be everything in between. New episodes drop on Wednesday and Sunday. Want more? Join the Daddy Gang @callherdaddy
What is up, daddy gang, it is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy.
Dr. Orna Goralnik, welcome back to Call Her Daddy. I am in shock that it's been, I think it's, three plus years, right?
Unbelievable. I sort of didn't feel like it was three years, it feels like a year and a half ago. Right? Yeah.
I guess it's also because we do stay connected and we do communicate through email, which makes me so happy, but we haven't literally seen each other in three plus years, which is bananas to me. To anyone who is new here, daddy gang, Orna is a psychologist and psychoanalyst, and she is the star on the docu-series, Couples Therapy, where you counsel real patients about their lives in their couple dynamic, and a new season is coming out, and Matt is screwed because when a new season of Couples Therapy comes out, I go MIA, I sit in my room and I binge the entire thing in one sitting. So thank you.
Okay. You have to explain to me how you process all of that information in one binge.
I think it's because I get so invested in these people's lives, and I want to know, are they going to stay together? Are they going to progress? What is the trauma that they're about to uncover? I think it feels like the most real show I've ever watched. You're so incredible at extracting information from people in a way that makes them feel comfortable, but also you fall in love with these people.
I love that we get to see their home life and we get to see them as real humans, and it's not just this fake facade of a fun show to watch people talk about trauma. So I'll be binging.
I'm very, very curious to talk to you after you watch the show.
On this show, I have been so open about my therapy journey. I've been open about having a psychologist as a mother and just what that has allowed me to embrace in my life, maybe where people who were raised in a home that weren't as open about therapy, it has more of a negative connotation and stigma. But couples therapy, I feel like everyone now is like, oh my gosh, get into therapy. It's the best thing. But couples therapy still has this negative connotation for couples.
Why do you think there's such a big stigma around it?
Well, I think first of all, there's this, I don't remember if we talked about it last time, but there's this like really intense firewall around couples in general, where people do not like to share the fact that they're having struggles and trouble in their couple's relationship with other people. There's some need to kind of preserve a certain kind of some kind of facade of what a couple is like, especially when people get married.
So in that sense, it's not only the couple's therapy, it's just the idea that couples are having trouble is very scary for people. They don't want to talk about it. They don't want to expose it. It's almost like they're calling in bad spirits if they talk about it.
It's a good point. And I also think there's a fear of if you share too much in a vulnerable moment, then when the next day you're fine and you're at the park and you're smiling, you almost feel this shame of like, oh, I'm embarrassed and I feel like I can't recover from what I shared. I definitely had moments in the very beginning of my relationship with Matt where I would share with a friend if we had a fight. And then I felt a little awkward because I'm like, well, we're still together, but we worked through it. And then the friend is almost wanting to check in on you and you kind of don't want to keep bringing it up.
So it's like there's this like social element of you don't need to, they don't see everything. And when you share the bad, they also don't want to leave that bad impression.
And also you're responsible. You have another person's trust in your hand. So, talking about it, it's a little bit like, does your partner have the consent? Have they given the consent? It's complicated.
How does someone know if they should start couples therapy with their partner?
Funny people ask me that. I'm not of the school that believes that everyone should be in couples therapy and it's always good. I don't think so.
I think there's a certain kind of window in which couples therapy is a good idea. If you're in a relationship and you feel like there's a certain kind of pattern that feels destructive and not like not a growth pattern that keeps repeating and you and your partner are trying different ways to change it and nothing's changing. You feel like you're kind of stuck and whatever you're doing is just either repetitive or making things worse. That's a good time to bring in a third person and try to get some perspective on it.
Do you feel like if someone comes to you and is like, I'm terrified he's going to cheat and you're like, well, has he given you any reason that he's going to cheat? And she's like, no, but my past and whatever, then it's like, would you ever be like, so? you probably need to go to individual therapy?
Right. Okay.
Yes.
Because it's like- That's not a good idea to go to couples therapy in that moment.
Before anything bad happens. Right.
I mean, but people sometimes do that. It's like they think of it as like premarital counseling, like tell me how to like avoid all the problems that life is going to present me with. And it's like, there's no way life's going to present you with problems and patterns are going to emerge and you can't like protect yourself against it. It's life. It's like go in and live it.
And when you need to get someone to help you. And then, on the other end of things, if people wait too long, sometimes it's too late, really. I mean, it's a very sad thing, but you know, I see sometimes couple that come in after years and years of slogging it and kind of avoiding the problem or repeating issues. And by the time they come in there, there's just like not enough goodwill left in them. Not enough love or not enough hope.
And as much as they try, it's really hard to resurrect the relationship.
So that's interesting.
So that's kind of the window for me.
Okay. What if someone's sitting here listening, Orna, and is like, I want to go to couples therapy so badly, but my partner refuses and has no interest? Common. How do you deal with that?
There's one thing, which is to get over the hump of starting therapy, which often one person is more resistant and more scared of doing that. And that getting over that particular hump of just the beginning is not, I don't think it's a big deal. I mean, I can tell people, look, just like ask your partner, give it a try, or barter, you know, say something like, if you come with me to couples therapy, I'll offer this for you. I'll go your way in some other way. You know, we can go like take that trip I've always refused to do, or I don't know.
Yeah. So getting people through the door is not that hard, but then it's the job of the therapist to make sure that both people feel like it's a safe place. It's a place where both of them can get something out of it. Because I think what often people are afraid of is that they're going to be dragged into a therapist's office and they're going to be ganged up on and everyone's going to try to force them to give up something that matters to them, to change in a way that they don't feel is right for them, or it's not going to be for them. And you know, the job of the therapist is to make sure that you're really helping the couple, not one person.
And I think once two people feel like they're really being heard and that they both have something to gain from it, they're going to want to stay.
Yeah. I think that's what is a huge misconception about couples therapy from the person that is not wanting to go and is kind of reluctant. I think so many people are like, I'm literally going to get attacked. And I guess there, if you could explain to people maybe that are listening, what can they expect in couples therapy? Because you're right, I think people are terrified of it.
I think that the person that sets it up, the other person, is like, oh, you guys have a plan and I'm not in on it and you guys are going to try to push me into a corner. How would you explain it to someone who has never done it, but is a little trepidatious about going into it, but is like, oh no, what am I going to walk into?
That's a really good question. I think what I would say to people is like, think about therapy, about couples, therapy as a place where you have the chance to really imagine what you want out of the relationship and to have in the therapist, an ally of the relationship, someone who can help you and your partner get to something that you actually want together, meaning it's not a situation where anyone should feel cornered. I mean, there are moments when people are going to face difficult things about themselves and be asked to grow and expand and maybe give more than they're used to. But the ultimate idea is that you're there to gain, you're there to gain something that matters to you. And if that's not happening in therapy, you're not in the right place.
I think that's incredible to hear, though, because I think anyone that hasn't been raised around therapy being a healthy, happy, positive thing, it's a really intimidating experience to even conceptualize, because you're picturing someone staring at you, judging you. And that is intimidating, because vulnerability is intimidating in the first place. And to have someone that's like a specialist, I could see someone who's not aware of how a therapist actually acts towards you could be like, oh, this bitch is going to fucking judge me and it's going to tell me I have all this trauma. And it's going to be painful.
Yes.
And why are we opening all this up? I'm fine right now. Yeah. And it's like, well, you're fine until the next fight starts. And then you go back to your patterns because of whatever happened in your childhood when you were in your home, the way your parents treated you, it's all connected.
Like why people don't go, for example, to have a mammogram or a colonoscopy, that they're both like afraid that it's going to be painful.
Fear.
And they're afraid of like what they're going to find out. And that is not what happens in therapy. So true. It's, it should feel, I mean, it's not like, you know, Luna Park, it's not like fun, fun, but it should feel like an enriching, good experience of like being heard, understanding someone else, kind of in a richer, deeper way.
There's clarity. Yeah.
And truth.
Yeah. So I'm curious. I feel like a huge part of the show is people come to you and are trying to learn how to manage conflict. I mean, it's like, that's every relationship. How do we fight?
How do we communicate? How are we going to handle these things? What is the biggest mistake that you see people making when arguing with their partner?
There's people, I don't know if to call it a mistake, but I think what conversations go wrong, where conflict goes wrong, is first of all, just on the simple level of level of agitation. Like, again, like I was talking earlier about, like a window, like a good window. There's a good window in which decent conversations can happen. And that's when you're not either too upset or too activated, or too wounded that you can't actually process. And then the conversation is not a real conversation.
It's just like either a crying, screaming, whatever match.
And on the other end, people can feel so shut down or hopeless that they're not really engaging.
They're withdrawing from the conversation. So maybe the most basic thing for people for a good conversation, for good conflict, would be to make sure you're in the right zone. You're not too shut down and you're not too over, whatever, agitated. The other big kind of still tactical issue is, and this is, it might seem just tactical, but it's actually pretty deep. Are you noticing when you're busy trying to convince your partner of something?
And when are you actually trying to understand them?
Shots fired.
Yeah.
Right.
It's huge. It seems like it should be simple, right? Right. But it's huge. And I see it in my couples.
I actually just had a session with a couple this morning where they kind of realized that difference and how it will change things if they really move into deep listening mode rather than convincing, convincing. Right. And it changes everything.
It does, because it's like when you're in those moments, you almost have blinders on where you're like, I will get him to understand my point, hell or high water. And he's on the other side being like, I need her to understand what I'm saying. And so you're just like hitting a wall and it's bouncing back at you and you feel crazy and you're like, no, how don't you hear me? And then it's like, if you can get to a better, yes, you're literally, nothing is penetrating.
And people get increasingly frustrated. Both sides get increasingly, because it's not a conversation.
It's not. It's funny. It reminds me of in the beginning stages of my relationship with Matt, it's so funny. I think I had like met him right around the time that we did our first...
I can't wait to hear, like the update on what happens.
So it's so funny because we're both in personal therapy and I don't think I've ever even said this. on the show. We went to couples therapy and it was in the beginning of our relationship, I reached out to you. Do you remember this? Yeah.
I reached out to you and I asked you, do you have a good couples therapist? I was like, wink, wink, want to do it? And you're like, Alex, that's a complete conflict. Right.
Who did I send you to, by the way?
You sent me to, oh my God, I'm going to have to find her name. She was incredible. Awesome. But she was amazing. And it was in the beginning stage, daddy gang, I never told you this, Matt, and I went to couples therapy.
And I remember, in the beginning of talking about it with friends, I was like, I don't want to talk about this on my show. People will think Matt and I have problems. Of course we had problems. We were...
It's called life. It's a problem. Exactly.
Always. But we had such incredible conversations, and not that we have to get too much into it, but what I remember from the main problem Matt and I were having was Matt was ready to settle down with me. And I wanted to, I really did, but I was feeling like my independence was being threatened. So if Matt was ever like, hey, if you're going out with your girlfriends, just give me a text that you got home. And in my mind, I'm like, you're being controlling.
And so I was pulling away because I thought that his actual genuine care of wanting to build a life together and be respectful and communicate from previous relationships, I felt like that was controlling and possessive. And so we worked on it a lot in couples therapy, where it's like, so, Alex, if you're busy with work and you haven't talked to Matt all day, could you just send him a text? Because it's all coming from love. He just wants to make sure, should I go to a dinner with a friend or am I waiting for you to cook you a meal? And I'm like, oh, well, when you put it that way, I sound like an asshole.
But it was difficult for me to conceptualize a life where I brought someone else in and had to think of them. Because I think as a woman, my mom raised me as a very independent woman. I thought that partnering with a man meant I had to give up my independence. What I've realized is independence in that relationship now just looks like communicating and being respectful of the other person. And Matt.
now, I can go do whatever I want. And Matt trusts me, but we needed to build that first core trust in order to have independence in the relationship.
Yeah, and to kind of borrow what you're describing to what I was saying, it's like you have to, if you're just going to keep trying to explain, let's say, to Matt why it's bothersome to you, his ask, and you don't ever pause and say, wait, but how is he thinking about this? Forget about how I'm perceiving it. How is he perceiving it? What is the meaning of this text or phone call to him? If you don't ever do that, then you're, I mean, you're never going to resolve what could be a really simple issue if you just listen.
It's so true. And that's where I will say when I sat in couples therapy with him all those weeks, we would leave and we would look at each other and be like, oh my God, I'm sorry. I can't believe that I ... I remember one session I was so adamant about why does he need to know where I am at all times? And he's like, I don't.
I need you to hear what I'm saying. I'm genuinely trying to be respectful of our relationship to know, should I expect to see you tonight?
That's all.
And I eventually recognized also. he was in a position where he was like, I know you're the one. I also want to make sure I'm not investing all my time in someone that I think for a while I was. ... He was even questioning if I liked him at one point because I would pull away so hard when really it was just, I was terrified.
I'd never met someone incredible like that, that I was like, oh my God, I have to make sure I'm still independent because what if it doesn't work out? And so we were both just like yearning to connect, which I bet is what you see all the time where it's like different versions of it. But I think we did it for like two months and then we ended up being like, okay, we had this one big problem and we solved it. And then we were like, okay, I think we're good and now we're married.
Wow. It's crazy. Wow.
But it was a big. ... I know I'm probably to people listening, I know it probably sounds like, oh, he just wanted you to text. It was so much bigger than that and I'm not giving it justice, but it was this very big, what is the thing, like the pursuer and the withdrawler? It was that.
He was like, Alex. And I was like, get away. But I was like, but I love you. And then he'd be like, but why are you treating me like shit? And I was like, I don't know.
And it went on for a little bit there and I'm so grateful that we had people in our life. Like I could email you and be like, we need someone and it solved a lot of our problems and I just want people to get more comfortable thinking about couples therapy in a way that you're right. If there's a friction in your relationship, it is pretty simple to solve when you have the right tools in front of you and someone sitting there just to facilitate it.
What's also interesting about, like the way therapy works is that you don't have to solve every problem. You solve one problem, like what you're describing here, and I'm sure it has. like many reverberations. You don't have to sit in therapy then to solve every other problem that comes up. You learn a certain kind of method that then generalizes.
You're right. Like. I remember one of the sessions we had, Matt and I were like, well, we were, you know, we were arguing about this, cause we couldn't figure out. And I remember she stopped us and she was like, were you drunk? And we were like, oh yeah, we, yeah, we, we were.
And she was like, okay, I'm going to have you do this for the next two weeks. Anytime that you are both drinking, the minute a conversation, you guys start to like friction a little bit, we're done. Save this for the morning. That is now a rule that Matt and I have continued for the past three and a half years. Whenever we're drinking, if there's ever like a, wait, why did you say that?
Like that? We're like, nope. See you in the morning. Let's stop it. And it has saved us so much of those headaches where it's like, no one is thinking right when they're drunk.
And to have a comfort, right?
When you're drunk, you're like full of projections. It's when all the ghosts come out of the box. It's like, no.
You're not getting anywhere and you can't hear shit that they're saying. Right. You're like, la, la, la, la, la. It's like, not a point.
Can I just interrupt? Yes, please. Like, I want to say something, but I think one of the things that was like so incredible to me when we had that interview three years ago was your capacity to listen. It was really kind of extraordinary. And I was like, you were so young and I'm like, how, wow, this is like, you have a lot of your questions in mind, but then, when I'm talking, you're truly listening.
Like it's-. Thank you, Orna. Yeah.
I appreciate that. And I definitely think it's, I have gotten better over the years. I think it's something that I recognize, that when people give that to me, it makes me feel seen and I feel so much more connected with someone. And I think it's definitely allowed me to have deeper relationships in my life, because a lot of people are like, oh, I can tell you actually genuinely give a shit what I'm talking about. And I think that's also why I love my job.
But it's also, I think it also has to do with just an honest curiosity, like getting out of yourself and like actually being curious about stuff that's outside of you.
Someone asked me the other week, they were like, why do you do this? And I was like, I love it. Like. I love sitting across from you and next week it could be a rapper. And I'm like, I love learning about other people, because I don't want to just feel so sheltered in my little bubble and be like, let's talk about this this week.
People are fascinating. We all have different experiences. It's incredible to come together and be like, I never saw it that way, but I respect it. And even if you don't move forward and take someone's life lessons, I will always think about it. I'm like, oh, that person saw it that way.
And I have respect for that. On the show you say, and this is kind of what we're talking about, but I think this is like a huge thing for my listeners that they always write in about. You talk about how there is usually so much more to the fight than what the couple is actually specifically arguing about in that moment. How does one step back and see the bigger picture? Because it's difficult.
Very. I think, I think the, you know, when, when it's in the heat of the moment, when, when the iron is hot, I think it's a lot to ask of people, to really know always what's going on and what might be feeding the superficial fight. I think maybe a realistic thing to ask of people is to have a voice in there that says to, one, says to oneself, I'm sure it's not only about this. There must be other things going on for me that I'm not exactly aware of right now. I'm going to, if I need to, if I feel like I'm getting too, you know, there could be signals that you're getting too heated about something that shouldn't be.
And then you can say to yourself, maybe I should pause, think about it for a while and come back to the conversation, not in the heat of it. Yeah. But just to maintain this kind of kernel of curiosity, I have an unconscious, there might be other things going on here. There are signals that you give yourself when you're like, when you get too excited about something, too upset, like when there's a feeling that you get when, when something else is going on.
I love that in the show, though, when you have those moments with someone, because again, I think, like sometimes in romantic relationships, there's a dynamic that you're trying to sustain, and, like the ego does come into play sometimes. And so I understand, when I watch people on the show, like one person doesn't want to give it up. But then, when you ask the brilliant question of like, can we pause for a minute? What do you think this out? What else is this about for you?
What was your relationship with your mother? And then, all of a sudden, the person goes down a spiral of like, well, she never gave me attention, and I was always fighting for attention for my mother. And then all of a sudden, before she even finishes a sentence, she's like, oh, I guess it's because she never is looking at me in a way that I feel like I'm having to, like, ask her for attention. It's all these inner dynamics that we had growing up.
I know that when it's in the moment, when your partner triggers you, let's say in the way your mom triggered you, it's very hard in those moments to like step out and say, oh, it's my mother issues that are playing out right now, because it feels so real and so intense in the moment. It's hard. It's hard for people to do.
Do you have any advice? How do we check in on ourselves and determine if we're picking a fight quite literally just for the thrill of conflict? I think people do love conflict.
Give us some advice, Orna.
I like that. you're saying that, the thrill of conflict, because I talk to people about that. People don't usually like to acknowledge that. I think what I would say is, first of all, it's great to acknowledge that there is such a thing as the thrill of conflict.
And I'm going to say something even slightly provocative, there's nothing bad with that.
Okay. Orna.
I know.
Who is she?
No, I'm not like, I don't think like the, I mean, people are different in what they need in their relationship, but I think sometimes people who need to have fights or pick on each other or let out some steam through the relationship, or, I think that's okay. I mean, relationships are not supposed to be this kind of hallmark, picture-perfect, like sweetness thing. Right. It's a place where people live and discharge on each other and use each other and in small ways betray each other and recover. I think that's life.
And I think for people not to be so hard on each other for using each other in that way, for living in the relationship, it's just like, I often talk about the fact that I don't use like, I don't even use coasters on my furniture. I'm like, furniture is to be used, like leave a stain and cut through the board. And it's like, that's what it's here for. And relationships are like that too. You want the relationship to be in a live place.
I think where it gets problematic is if you're really hurting each other. And if there's something too pernicious about it, or if, like the thrill of injury is what takes over, or of retaliation or injury, that's when I'm like, I draw the line and I'm like, no, that is not, you're not there to like, um, abuse each other. And not every fight is an abuse.
That's a really great point. I think. when couples say like, oh, we had a fight, like most of the time, you could also change it to like, we had an argument or like we had a disagreement. And I think when you're right, though, like it can be healthy to have fights because you're working through something, but there is a difference between a fight and then something that is like absolutely abusing the relationship and is getting you nowhere, and it's just to push and hurt. But I love what you said, though, um, about how there should be conflict and these relationships like we're living in them.
I think we've watched growing up for decades and decades, like, historically, when you think of romantic relationships, they're held on a different pedestal than every other relationship in our life. Like who the hell has a perfect relationship with their parents, with their siblings, with their friends? Like, of course, you're going to have conflict, disagreements, growing pains with friends and family. Why do we think that that wouldn't also be true and present in romantic relationships?
The person you're the closest to. Right. Yeah. That you have to like live with and wake up with and like load the dishwasher with. Right.
And I think that's like, it's helpful to talk about that, to make people feel better of like, of course no relationship is perfect, but when your primary dynamics were in the household you were growing up in, of course families are going to fight. Now, your new family that you're building, of course there's going to be problems, but it's how do we actually like address the problems? Is it to be cutting and to go beneath the bell and to make the person feel bad? Or is it like you're talking through a disagreement and like you're going to sit at the table all night until you guys can find a way to come back together?
I need to know, and this is for all the daddy gang out there that are like, don't call us out. Why do some people find toxic relationships so exciting and so addicting?
Hmm. Hmm. Okay. Good question. How, how would we frame it?
Um, I mean the, the more kind of classical, psychoanalytic way to think about, like why people get pulled towards, like abusive and toxic relationships, is that it's some form of what we call in jargon, repetition, compulsion, where something is unresolved, let's say, a past dynamic is unresolved, or past trauma or a way that you were treated in an earlier stage of your life is unresolved and unworked through. And you're kind of looking for some way to repeat the same issue that you haven't resolved. Um, whether it's to master it, to come out of it better, or because there's just this kind of, um, compulsion to just repeat the same thing. So that's one reason people get stuck on, on toxic relationships, but there are other ways to think about it. Like toxic relationships, one of the things they do in toxic relationships, I mean, sometimes it's too wide a term.
I like, I think maybe not, I don't think we need to go as far as like, it's abusive. It's just like this, very unhealthy, like this person is constantly playing games, constantly. Like, is there a version of like little gaslighting? Like it's not full blown gaslighting. You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Um, it's, you know, I often try to like, when, when I talk to people about like, they're clinging on to relationships that are not good for them. Sometimes it's, um, when a person feels, on some level, damage or bad about themselves, or, um, shame about certain aspects of themselves, they at times go for situations that reinforce that view of themselves.
Interesting. Because, as you were saying, that, I was having a moment where I was thinking about when I was in college, I had been like super insecure when I was younger and I would go for these men. that, like, it was like, I was trying to get the, the guy that was so unattainable. and when I would get him, I was like playing the game back. But there was a part of me that like, enjoyed it because it felt like it was like validating to me, like you got him, like you did it.
And it was almost like healing the wounds of me, feeling like no guy wanted me when I was younger and like I would get picked on. And so when I would get these guys, that was like the captain of the hockey team, it was like, I almost was going for like in my brain accolades of like, I want to get there to prove it was more, to prove to myself I can. I never felt fulfilled. I never felt happy, but it was like I was replaying, oh, if I was younger, these are the things I wish I could have done. And then I got there and I'm like, well, this isn't fun.
Right. Like. I don't feel happy. I don't feel seen. But it was like an ego thing almost.
Right. And you can, and that is in a certain way, you're trying to repair something. Yeah. But sometimes it's, I mean, you can in a way flip it and you can see people who are not doing it to repair. They're doing it actually to just keep telling themselves, I suck.
I suck.
And what do you, what is that mostly from childhood? that, it's a form, I mean, you can.
think of it as masochism, but it's, it's like, it's a, it's being stuck on a certain kind of repeat. It's self negating. I mean, people do all sorts of neurotic things that are bad for them. Yeah. For, I mean, that's why we have psychoanalysis.
I mean. Yeah. There are many ways that people do things that are bad for them.
Have you found through psychoanalysis, like any repeating pattern from childhood, that would make someone constantly try to remind themselves of how they're not worthy, not good enough?
Yes.
Can you share? Just a couple examples?
Well, the classic example, I mean, it's kind of an extreme example, but think of the classic pattern of people who've been, let's say, sexually abused as children. And then in teenage years, they're like, they enter like a series of like abusive, promiscuous relationships that just make them feel like shit, because that's the only way they can, they know how to think of themselves. It's like an endless self punishing cycle. It's very, I mean, it's like a very particular kind of dynamic with people who've had, like early abuse, that it takes like deep work to move out of that pattern.
But you know what I mean? That's so helpful. Yeah. I think, because I think, again, why I appreciate these type of conversations in the show is like, I think, a lot of people who maybe have not even begun to like, experience therapy or thought about it, or it just wasn't a part of their upbringing, like that statement alone would be crazy to people. Like, hold on.
So someone that was abused is now going to go and like-.
Put themselves in harm's way.
Right. And it'd be like, wait, what? Like, I think they'd just never have sex for the rest of their life and they'd be shut down. That's just not the case. But I think these type of conversations help explain to people like the intricacy of trauma and how it unfolds in your adult life.
But I appreciate you sharing that, because I'm sure, I mean, one in every. what? Three women? Like so many women listening to this show, may be sitting there like, oh my God, Orna, I think I'm-.
I think I'm doing that.
And how do you even begin to like, what? Just therapy and talking through it?
I know the work of therapy. I mean, there are other ways that people deal with issues, but in psychoanalytic work, what we do is we, I mean, this is like, it's different with each person, but basically the idea is that you try to go back and revisit the actual experience and help the person now, with their more mature mind. really tend to what happened to them, to the injuries, to what was missing. Try to imagine how things could get better. Like you.
really try to tend to all the areas that were disavowed and neglected over the years and heal.
And I understand why that sounds absolutely terrifying to people. Like people with that type of trauma or any type of trauma, you're like, hold on, Orna, I'm supposed to go back and relive it? Are you crazy? Like? I put it away, I tucked it away.
But I think what people realize when they come out on the other side of it is there's such power and resilience you feel within yourself when you can go back and you can start to take control over your own life and not let this thing that happened to you define you. Because it does start to define you when you don't address it. It comes up in your romantic and your friendships and every part of your work life. And that's when it gets terrifying.
And people, it's so important for people to feel like they're not, like you're saying, defined by bad things that happened to them in the past, that they have some freedom, some degrees of freedom out of that. Yeah.
Back to couples, how big of a role does sex play in a healthy relationship?
It's funny. I just saw something in the Times today that I haven't read yet, but about people that are talking about how sex is not that important in their marriage. I think it varies a lot. I think not only is sex this kind of domain that goes anywhere and people have all possible things in their mind and in their bodies that can transpire between them. Sex is like a huge terrain, but the importance of sex and like what meaning people assign to sex in their relationship varies a lot.
I think for some people, having an ongoing connection through the body, through sexuality, is incredibly grounding.
And without that, they feel unmoored.
And for other people, it's not like their main, it's not where they live. It's not where the essence of their life is. I mean, for some people it might be like in the far out intellectual domain and the body is kind of a sort of byproduct that they tag along, but they really live in their mind and they want to live there with their partner. It really varies a lot between people.
Because I've had conversations with friends and I have a large spectrum, as you would expect. Like, I have one friend that's like, my parents weren't overly affectionate, so I don't find myself like, I don't like need sex. I actually, just like, crave more conversation. Whereas I have other friends that are like, oh, I like. the only way I know that we're like in a good place is if, like, we've gone too long without sex, I'm like, what's wrong with us?
Like, are we disconnected? Yeah. And I, though, I'm curious, if you have a couple where one is on one side of the spectrum and one is on the other, that then that's tough, right?
It's tough. Definitely. It's tough.
If, if people come into the relationship with very different, let's say, love languages or inclinations, that is tough. What's interesting is that couples might start off not that different from each other. I mean, one might be more physically affectionate or have like a stronger libido or like find sex is like where they express themselves and the other maybe a little less. Sometimes what happens, and that is a problem, is that people work out other tensions or difficulties through in that arena and then they polarize.
So someone could, I mean, the bedroom is often where people sadly work out other agendas. So someone could be like mad at their partner, for, I don't know, like not picking up the slack or taking care of the kid or whatever and withhold sex. It's easy for them to withhold sex because that's not exactly their mode of operating. But for the other party, it might feel like the worst kind of punishment and like the most threatening thing to do. And then, and then you get into the dynamic of polarization.
So they may not have started so different, but it's, they're working out some other issue through in that domain. And that is a problem.
Well, that's also a problem, because the person that is not, let's say, as, this is just, I'm just throwing this out there, sexual, that's not the actual right term. But if the person that's not as sexual in the relationship has the power, right? Because they're holding the keys to the sexual relationship and the person that wants it is then at times probably feeling like I'm such the pursuer constantly. I feel like I'm being rejected. I feel like I'm not getting the love I want.
Where the other person is like, all you care about is sex, because you just keep coming to me for it. But then they're like, well, because you never come to me for it. And they're like, because you're always wanting it. And it's like, how the hell do you, like, how do you approach a conversation, I guess, when you're in these dynamics with these couples, to like, bring them back to center?
There's no one size fits all. I mean, it really, with each couple, it's a different thing.
But what I find happens a lot in couples therapy is that you have to try to separate, if people are trying to negotiate other issues, in a way to pull it out of the bedroom. If you've got issues that you're working on, if you're resentful about other things, just try not for the bedroom to be the arena where you're like working it out, unless it really is about the bedroom. Right.
Like, if you both have just complete different sex drives, like, how do you approach a conversation with your partner if you are dissatisfied in the bedroom? Like, how do we, because that's a tough conversation and can be awkward.
Tough conversation. And I would actually probably start off by assuming, I mean, unless it's a very verbal couple, I would actually not start with language. Okay. A lot of sexual needs and differences. It's great to resolve.
to do it in real time through the body, like signal through the body, through nonverbal ways, what you want, what you need, experiment with things. And I guess it depends on the couple, like what works for them, working it out in real time or working it out, like when you're not in the middle of a sexual encounter, when vulnerabilities are high, passion is high. It's a tricky thing to use language in those moments.
It's so tricky because, I mean, unless you're in deep, deep therapy, like you got to be very careful because you can completely shut down and like, I agree to not like gender it, but like, let's say, it is the woman coming to the man, like it can just make them feel so shut down where they're like, how long have you been thinking about this? You're dissatisfied. They're feeling emasculated or roles reversed. The man comes to you and you're feeling like, oh my God, have you not been enjoying the sex? Every time we're having sex, who are you thinking of?
Like sex is a very, very vulnerable thing in a relationship. And I think you're, I never thought about it that way. You're right. It's like, if you can address it first with your body, like, let's say, the person is dissatisfied, because ever, I'm making this up, like every time you're having sex with your partner, you're feeling like it's, you're disconnected. Like you're having physical sex, but it just feels physical and there's no connection.
Okay. Well, instead of saying that, like you're right, Orna, like, maybe you're, when is the last time in the morning? are you hugging and kissing before you each leave for work? Or no, you're just kind of ships in the night and you see each other. And then, of course, when you're having sex, of course it doesn't feel intimate and special.
Are you hugging? Are you touching? Do you hold hands? Like you want more connection, of intimacy when you're having sex? Put intimacy throughout the rest of your relationship first before, like you're right, like lead with that.
Or you can do it while you're intimate, while you're having sex. I mean, there are ways that people can increase that kind of intimacy while they're having sex, not through words. Right.
Looking at each other, kissing while you're having sex, like maybe you guys never kissed while you're having sex. Yeah. That could feel a little like isolating where you're like, this could be anyone. So I love that advice because I do feel a lot of people write into me just like, I literally don't know how to tell my partner, like I'm not happy. I think that's like a very non-daunting way to go about it.
It's like first just slowly trying to make those steps yourself within the relationship and you don't have to have this big like blow up conversation.
Yeah. Why blow up at all? I mean, when we're talking about sex, I mean, there's the other thing, which is like frame things as requests as opposed to as complaints. I mean, that's always a good piece of advice, which is like translate what's bothering you into a request, into an ask rather than a complaint. I mean, the outcome could be very different.
Can you give us an example of like how it would be bad to say it versus a good way to say it?
Like you, never kiss me versus let's kiss.
It sounds so simple, but it's so not that simple when you're in the moment and he's like doing the dishes and you're like, okay, here I go, here I go. Why don't you kiss me? Ever. When we have sex, you never kiss me. I don't know the last time that you've made out with me and we're having sex and he's literally like mid dish washing.
What happened?
What just happened? And meanwhile, it's like you also, I think, something I've learned in therapy a lot, and we did it in couples therapy was like something that you have been holding onto, that's why it's so good to not hold onto things for too long in a relationship, because then you've had 19 conversations with yourself and they have no idea. you've been thinking this. So then, when it comes out, it can literally feel like a war and the person is like, oh my God, what is happening? I thought our sex life was great recently.
So you're right. It's like, hey, you know what? I would love to make out when we're having sex. I was thinking about that. Like, I love making out with you.
Why don't we do it when we have sex?
I wouldn't even say why don't.
Don't say, why don't. Nope.
Let's. Let's.
Shall we?
Yeah. Shall we? To the bedroom. As opposed to why don't we?
But it's, I love these conversations with you, Orna, because when we are going on our day to day, lives, like it is hard to remember all of these things. And sometimes it's good to just have these slow down conversations of like, all of us are the way we are because of everything that's come before us within our lives. And when you're standing across from your partner, it is not just the day we met on our first date and forward. It's like, no, no, no. Life existed before this person.
and what happened to you. I'm curious, like when we talk about past trauma, because I think this is something that's like a misconception, I think a lot of, most people assume we're talking about extreme situations, which we can, of course, we could do a whole episode on extreme situations like abuse. But can you talk about other types of childhood dynamics that can impact us in adulthood?
Yeah. Of course. I mean, first of all, there's, you know what, I mean, I think it's quite popular now to talk about, like attachment styles. But the very first patterns of relatedness that we establish with the people that take care of us, often parents, not always, they will influence the rest of our lives. They will set the kind of expectations we have.
For example, a simple and very important thing, like if you need something and you make an ask to the world, will the world respond or not?
Like you're saying, if you asked your parents, when you were younger, for help on something.
Before you even ask for help, like your diaper was wet and you started crying. How long did it take for your parent to get there and change your diaper? If you were colicky and you had like incredible stomach aches, was it even possible to help you with it? Sometimes it's really difficult to help colicky babies and they start off the world with some idea that when I'm in distress, the world can't always help me. Yeah, it's like, it's really like basic stuff of like.
what to expect from like the world. Like, do I have that like incredible trust that when I'm in distress, help will come. Those are really early things that get established and they're not always because of neglect or abuse. Sometimes it's just like, again, I mean, you can be a colicky baby or you could have all sorts of ways that your system is dysregulated and it's very hard to take care of you as a baby. And then you start off with a pattern of, I don't know what to call it, mistrust or some way, that the call and response is not established well.
But I think it's important to, just like, highlight that for a minute, because I can imagine a lot of people listening are like, oh, well, I don't have trauma compared to my friend. Like my friend went through this or was abused when she was younger or did it. And like, I don't have trauma. It's like everyone has something, that we all are the way we are because of our upbringing. And I think that when we, instead of being like, well, my stuff is not as bad, take care of yourself and also recognize like, hey, if you find yourself in a pattern in romantic relationships where you're like, why do I keep doing this?
Or when it does kind of show up at work too, like I'm always pulling away when someone's being nice to me. I can't take a compliment or I can't, like as simple as that, where does that come from? And I think, when we start to ask ourselves the questions, yes, it leads us down this like little dark path, but it's exciting to know that there is an answer and you can resolve it.
And the answer could be like really interesting, actually to go down that path and try to figure out. It's actually, it's really interesting. It is.
It's fascinating. That's why I told you when I binge this show, that's my answer. When I binge couples therapy, it's because why I love it and I can sit and I can handle. it is like one, because that's just how my mother raised me. Like let's talk for 19 hours and then some, but it really comes down to like, I'm fascinated by the human experience of like.
we all grow up and like. what triggers did we experience to make us afraid of intimacy? or overly intimate and overly trusting, or reserved, or outwardly, like very dramatic in moments, and people see it as dramatic, but really, what is it? Is it a cry for attention because you're like, yeah, it's interesting.
It's endless.
Like. I love it.
Question I think is very interesting is I actually had this from a fan was, which is where should someone draw the line between being supportive of their partner versus taking on way too much of their partner's trauma as their own?
I think that the question itself is an important one. There's a difference between caring for another person and taking care of them and getting kind of enmeshed, symbiotic, lost in someone else, which is not actually an act of care.
It's something else.
It's, I guess, what in lay language is called kind of codependency. You know, it makes me think a little bit about raising children, doing everything for them is not always the best thing. Figure out like what do they need for their own independence and development? When are you overdoing for your child because of your own issues? Like, you know, using your child to work through something versus seeing them for who they are, and when do they need a bit of support?
and when do you need to step back and let them do their own thing? I mean, that's kind of a very good learning ground for this difference between like overdoing it and doing it right out of care. I think there are many reasons why people get codependent that are not about care for the other person.
Share with me.
I mean, you can come like a million reasons why, like getting lost in someone else because you don't want to face something in yourself. You're escaping, like your own stuff, insecurities, all sorts of avoidance tactics. I think maybe what I'm trying to say is that it's important to try to ask yourself, am I getting super involved because I care for the well-being of this person, or am I answering some need of mine here? Hard, hard to decipher.
That's what I was going to say, because like, is it, is it fucked up to say like someone that has like secure attachment would probably never get themselves completely down a rabbit hole in that situation because they would be like, hold on, love you so much, but like you need help and I can't get this. You where, maybe it immediately turns on a light for someone of like, I'm needed, I'm wanted, they need me. And then it becomes codependent because again, back to the beginning of this episode, it's just feeling actually something within them to take care of that person. And of course they think they love them and they're trying, but it also is like completely filling their cup by being like, they need me and I'm here and I'm the caretaker and I didn't have that when I was younger, so now I'm going to take on that role, like whatever it is.
That's a really great way of describing it. Yes.
But do you think it's almost like, in a way also to help someone with? that question is like, is this too dramatic to be like, it's almost like when, if you're dating someone that has a substance abuse problem, you literally are, cannot help that person to a certain extent. Of course you can drive them to rehab, but they have to walk in the doors, they have to participate in the healing and you're not a professional to help the healing. Right. So when someone has this trauma, you can be there and cry with them and hold them, but it only goes to a certain extent where you're then both being brought down and if anything, you could be prohibiting them from actually seeking real help.
because there's this like codependency of like, we're going to do this together.
Right.
You can't do that together. I agree. They need a you.
Well, yeah. Or a me or an AA situation, or, yeah.
More questions from our fans. What are some signs? the relationship is moving too fast?
You know, a relationship has. ideally, I'm saying this and I'm immediately contradicting myself in my mind, but okay. Okay. Let me say the first thing. Okay.
A relationship has typically like a developmental arc. It takes a lot of time to get to know another person. I always feel like with my patients, it takes me two years to feel like I know this person. Really? Yeah.
Oh my God. I wonder how my therapist feels about me.
How long have you been seeing them? Over two years. Yeah. For sure. I feel like there's a moment in which suddenly it's like, oh, all the pieces are coming together.
Now I get this person. It takes a long time to get to know a person.
And I think the idea of moving too fast is when you assume you know more than you do. When you think you've got it, you understood everything about them. You get it. They understood you and in a way you're blocking all the areas that create the discomfort of realizing I don't know that person. That person doesn't know me, which is scary.
It's uncomfortable. It's scary. I think people sometimes have an inclination to want to avoid that and rush so that they don't sit through the discomfort of otherness and unfamiliarity and awkwardness, which is part of getting to know a person. There's going to be a lot of awkwardness.
So much awkwardness.
Yeah.
And I like that. you're saying that because I have had women write. in being like, Alex, I'm officially 30.. I'm like, you're so young. Enjoy it.
And it's like, no, no, no. I've got to find a husband. And I'm always so worried because it's like, listen, I think there's moments also where we completely project our wants onto someone and they could be literally sitting at a dinner with you being like, yeah, so I have this trauma. And you're like, oh my God, you know where we should go this weekend? We should go to Cancun.
And they're literally like, you're just putting on them what exactly you want. I want a husband. You look great. You played the part. And it's like, we sometimes just approach a relationship based off of what we want from it and need from it.
And we completely neglect the fact that the person across from us is like, a stranger. Yes. A complete stranger. And it's like this honeymoon phase. I think the honeymoon phase can be so tumultuous in the long run if you elongate it for too long.
And the honeymoon phase is on you to decide when the bubble pops. And you're like, so, actually, who are you? Literally. Tell me about your childhood.
What are you insecure about? What is something that has been one of the biggest hardships in your life?
It's daunting, but again, you can hear an answer from someone and be like, oh, I don't want to be with you because of the way you're telling me you handled that with this. I couldn't relate to that at all. But sometimes people go, sometimes people, I mean, you've probably seen it. How long have you seen people go in a relationship where you can sit down with them and they're married for like 30 years and you're like, do you guys know each other?
I know. I know.
How does that happen?
It's actually shocking to me. It's shocking to me.
That's possible, right?
It is possible. I mean, it's like people who, like their spouse, says, I want to get divorced and I'll ask them, like somebody can show up for therapy and say, my spouse wants to divorce me. And I'm like, what have they been saying to you over the years? that will help us understand? And they're like, I don't know.
What is that? That is self-absorption.
Right. Because it's like, how could you be in a relationship for that long and be completely blindsided,
right? Yeah.
I think that's where we decide as humans, when we want to block things off or we want to let it in.
Right.
Because I empathize. It's terrifying. Yeah. Sometimes you're like, I don't want to blow up my whole life. I like this little bubble I've created, but that is terrifying for someone to be like, I don't know why we're getting a divorce.
Yeah.
Yes, you do. You're like, sit on my couch for five more hours, we'll get to the bottom of it.
Yeah. Yeah. And often what happens in therapy is the person who supposedly didn't know, had a whole other part of themselves that did know, and that part is dissociated. That's really interesting.
How long does it usually take in therapy to come out?
A while. Really? A while.
And I think, as we're wrapping up, oh my God, I sound like a therapist, as we're wrapping up, you're like sobbing. I have done that with my therapist. sometimes, she's like, and we're wrapping up. And I'm like, Alex, I'm like, wait, my life's in shambles. I appreciate you walking us through that, though at the end there, because I feel like the whole thesis of this episode is like truly trying to dive underneath all these decisions that we are taking on our day to day, just at face value.
Oh, he treated me like shit. Oh, she did this. Oh shit. Why?
Yeah.
There's always an answer. Sometimes we don't want to know it, but it can give you a lot of peace when you do get underneath it and you know it. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. This relationship that we have makes me so happy.
Oh, it does? Me too. Really. Okay. I don't annoy you.
I'm like emailing you, like, hi, Orna.
No, I have like a deep, great fondness for you. Orna. Yeah.
Don't make me cry.
No, it's-.
No, I really appreciate you and everything you do. And I think this show is truly revolutionary. We don't get to see therapy working from a start to finish moment. And obviously I know it's not finished, but we don't get to see the breaking down of humans and like watching these inner dynamics come from beginning to wherever they're left, whether it's breaking up or staying together. And so I think what you guys are doing is amazing and I'm addicted.
So I'll be watching.
Thank you. Thank you.
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