A Look Back on Scott’s Tots with B.J. Novak

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I'm Jenna Fisher.

And I'm Angela Kinsey.

We were on The Office together.

And we're best friends.

And now we're doing

the Ultimate Office Rewatch Podcast just for you.

Each week, we will break down an episode of The Office

and give exclusive behind-the-scenes stories

that only two people who were there can tell you.

We're The Office ladies.

Hello, Angela.

Hi, Jenna.

We are here.

We are surrounded by lamps.

So both of us have some progressive eye sight issues.

Problems, yes, deteriorating eyesight.

And we both just got new glasses,

but here's the thing we need, lots of light.

I need a well-lit room.

I am that person at a restaurant now

who is holding the little votive candle

over the menu.

Yeah, that's right.

And using your iPhone light.

I try not to use the iPhone light

because it's just so incredibly embarrassing,

but it sometimes comes to that.

Oh, I've let it go.

I'm iPhone light.

I would like to point this out,

and maybe I shouldn't put it in our stories.

We have an addition to the overhead light

that comes in this room, right?

There's track lighting.

There's all these bulbs.

We have brought in lamps.

I'm talking floor lamps, guys,

like that you see at Target, the floor lamps.

We have one, two, three, four,

four around us right now, four floor lamps.

We're ladies who love lamps.

We're the lamp ladies.

We're the lamp ladies.

And we're here today to talk to you about Scott's Tots.

Season six, episode 12,

written by Lee Eisenberg and Jean Stupnitsky

and directed by BJ Novak, our very own BJ Novak.

Yeah.

Here's a summary.

It's time for Michael to face the music

on an empty promise that he made 10 years ago.

Here's the promise.

He told 15 elementary school students

that when they graduated from high school,

he would pay their college tuition

because he believed he would be a millionaire by that time.

But he's not.

And he can't do it.

Nope.

So he's gonna have to go to their school

and tell them today.

In person.

Meanwhile, Dwight hatches a diabolical plan

to try and get Jim fired.

He literally calls it a diabolical plan.

Yep.

He printed out a little outline of his plan.

So as many of you know,

this episode is considered the cringiest.

Yeah, Jen and I were talking

as we prepped for this episode, we both went online.

There are so many articles

that list the cringiest moments

or cringiest episodes of The Office.

And Scott's Tot pretty much makes number one

on almost all the lists.

Well, we're very excited today

because we are interviewing the director

of this episode, BJ Novak.

We're gonna ask him all about it.

BJ, hello.

Welcome to Office Ladies.

Thank you.

Welcome back.

I've been on.

Wait, are we starting with some BJ sass?

I think we just started with sass already.

I love it.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not my brand.

It's the Ryan brand.

It's the Ryan sass coming through.

Yes, welcome back to Office Ladies.

Is this your third?

Second.

Second.

You have no memory of any of this.

Do I know you?

Have we met?

Who are you?

How'd you get into Zoom?

You're on my IMDB right now.

It's like, oh, wow.

I guess I worked with him, okay.

BJ, thanks so much for being here.

Yeah, I keep staring at you two.

It's pretty cool.

I'm like, are they the same people?

I know I did this before, but.

Well, we're the same, just, you know,

slightly rounder.

Yeah.

And I was talking to Brian Baumgartner

for the first time in forever, not in person.

And I was like, when I see him,

is he even Brian to me anymore?

Is it just like Kevin?

Like, it's this weird blur when it's been so long.

Well, I totally get that though,

because Jenna and I also live in this weird

kind of surreal place where we see you every week.

Every week, but we see you.

Oh, because you re-watch.

Yeah, and we re-watch multiple times

as we do research and stuff.

So we'll watch each episode three times at least, you know.

Wow.

Yeah, and it's.

You're in that phase.

Your character's in that phase right now

where like every week you're doing something weird

like wearing a fedora or glasses.

Yeah, yeah.

Or like a weird patterned vest.

Yes, that's what you do when you don't know

what to do with the character.

Yeah.

But you guys are living in our brains

in this like, this predated place, you know.

Obviously you are the DNA of you enjoy watching

the stuff you've done.

Yeah.

And I'll say this, my lore of the show

before we started this re-watch

was that it was only good for a few seasons

and then it was like, meh.

I know.

We were really snobby about it.

And it's not true.

I thought season three, I was like,

this show's fucking over.

But it is not true at all.

We're in the middle of season six.

We're like cruising right into season seven

and it is a pleasure and a joy to watch.

There were episodes where I thought,

oh that, I remember when we were doing them

that we were like, oh, so broad and blah.

And Jen and I are re-watching them

and laughing our asses off.

Yeah, like Mafia.

I was like this, when we shot Mafia,

I was like, what has happened to us?

Why is Ed dressed as a mechanic?

It is just, it's amazing.

There's just nothing wrong with it.

I mean, some of the bigger swings are more clear

why you doubt them, like Kevin and the chili

that we talk about.

Mindy and I were like, no, this is the dumbest.

It's like, okay, the cold open.

Kevin makes chili, he loves it,

he walks up, he spills the chili.

And we're like, that's the joke?

We're like this intellectual show?

And it's like a classic.

But it's also like, when you're in a school play,

when you're a kid and your parents see Saturday night

or Friday night and you're like,

it was so much better Saturday.

And the parents like, I know you think that.

To me, it's just you in a play, okay?

And I feel like to fans, it's like, okay,

but it's Jim and Pam and it's still The Office, guys.

I'm sorry that season six wasn't seasoned.

It's very funny, I get it.

It's the same show.

Oh, that's really good, actually, that's so true.

Thank you for coming on today.

Oh, I love it.

So that we could talk about Gotts Tots,

which you directed.

It was your directorial debut of The Office.

Of anything, yeah.

Now, had you not directed a webisodes before this?

Oh, that's true.

I did the webisodes, yeah.

But you know, the first substantial thing.

Do you guys remember anything about the show?

The two of you?

Me and Jay.

Angela, you wanna just handle this on your own?

I mean, I think you got this.

I got this.

Well, we have some stats to throw at you

about some reviews of Scott's Tots.

We do.

Just so we get clear,

did you bring me on to answer for Scott's Tots?

No, no, no, no. To apologize?

Okay, okay.

No, no, no, no.

Because I know some of this, but please, let's refresh.

No, not at all, not at all.

Okay, what are they saying?

Scott's Tots is widely referred to

as the cringiest episode of The Office.

The majority of our fan questions

that we got for this episode were not questions at all.

They were actually just comments

on how cringy and uncomfortable it is

for people to watch this show.

How a lot of people skip it

when they do a rewatch of the show.

We found an article on Bustle.com that was titled this,

The Scientific Reason Office Fans

Really Can't Watch Scott's Tots No Matter How Hard They Try.

Oh, there's a whole article.

There's a doctor and everything.

Yes, Dr. Judith Orloff is the author

of the Empath Survival Guide, and she said,

quote, fans might very well avoid this episode

to avoid something painful

that's hard to face in themselves.

There is a subreddit with almost 17,000 subscribers

that is titled Cannot Watch Scott's Tots,

and it is still regularly updated.

This was my favorite.

What?

One person on this subreddit said

that Scott's Tots is like the moment Toby put his hand

on Pam's knee but stretched out for a whole episode.

DJ, at the time, did you know?

Did you know that you were directing

what would become the cringiest episode of The Office?

I had no idea.

It seemed great, you know?

I was assigned the script, loved it,

and it was only much later.

I think it's a sign of how deep into the show I was

or we all were that we did not have a foot in the real world.

Not that it was an unrealistic episode,

just that that's exactly what Michael would do.

That's exactly what Michael would feel.

I also think that, you know,

we can talk about it creatively.

It makes a lot of sense to me.

I don't know if people are responding to,

it seems like no one's responding to it's a bad episode

or it's Michael wouldn't do that.

It's more just like that's so hard to watch.

So it is consistent, I think, with the show.

So to us, it just made sense.

It was consistent.

I don't remember anyone saying, you can't do this.

But to me, I mean, it is heartbreaking

from both the kids' perspective, sure,

but from Michael's perspective,

which is the one you just happen to be following

in The Office, which is that to me,

the key to the episode was that Michael was so sure

that he would be successful,

that he could make this promise.

Yeah, yeah, he so believed in himself.

Yes, it's not, to me, it's not about the lie.

It's not about what ended up being a lie

or a broken promise.

It's Michael's, he got carried away with his generosity,

his belief in himself.

So to me, it was a very, I mean,

maybe this is what people cringe about.

It's a very, very lovable version of Michael Scott,

as well as a heartbreaking version of Michael Scott.

And it's sort of the whole series

in an incredibly distilled, uncomfortable way

from the Michael Scott point of view

when you look at it like that.

To me, it's maybe one of the most Michael things

Michael has ever done.

100%. Yes.

I love the line so much.

I felt like it was everything you need to know about Michael

when he says, I've made some empty promises in my life,

but hands down, that was the most generous.

That line is so perfect.

BJ, I made a list because there are a bunch of articles

that list the cringiest episodes of The Office.

Get ready.

You wrote most of them.

Their Prince Family Paper, Diversity Day,

Sexual Harassment, and Chair Model,

all of which you wrote.

Yes, yes.

Chair Model, you remember Chair Model

where Michael falls in love with a woman in a magazine

and finds out she's died.

And he is as if like he lost his wife for 50 years.

Paul Lieberstein wrote a lot.

I love that episode.

Paul is the source of the darkness on that one.

And look, I wrote a lot of very joyous stuff too.

I wrote a lot of the Jim and Pam.

I wrote Threat Level Midnight,

which is a very joyful episode.

So I'm not, it's not like I'm the Prince of Darkness

on the show.

And also look, there were what?

How many hundred episodes I worked on?

Like, you know, more than half of them.

So it's not, I'm not just this dark figure.

I'm proud of it.

I'm less dark now though, because again,

I do hear this and I do go, oh my God.

Like, how was I capable of some of this?

Like, especially when I see Ryan Howard,

I'm like, oh my God.

Like, I don't see any villain like this.

Here's the Mashable article that comes out

after this episode.

BJ Novak, Prince of Darkness of the office.

No, BJ, we love like, my God.

No, I think the dark is important.

And I think that, you know, I remember after season one,

which was six episodes,

and I think all of them ended pretty darkly, right?

The Pilot, Hot Girl.

I mean, we had that nice moment at the end of diversity,

but the Pilot, Diversity Day, Hot Girl,

Healthcare, extremely dark.

Basketball, I don't remember.

Office Olympics and Basketball

maybe were a little more positive endings.

But, you know, we had sort of a big group meeting

that Greg led about, okay,

what are we going to do differently in season two?

And there was a lot different.

And one of them was three out of four endings

should be positive.

And then one is just for us, meaning Paul.

He was like, we're not going to totally sell out,

but the British had ended dark every time, more or less.

And we had been ending dark every time, more or less.

And so the new thing was, you know,

so I guess Scott's Tots was definitely one of those four.

One for us.

Yeah, but again, I do think it's an interesting,

it is a deep, interesting one.

It's not that it's not part of the canon,

it is very difficult, I agree, I agree.

I think, though, it is Michael.

It's honestly Michael trying to do something good,

believing in himself, knowing,

well, I don't think he knows he's going to fall short.

Well, look how much he believes in Pam and her art.

I know.

He is such a believer.

He is.

You know?

And so his belief got ahead of him.

And this is by far, you know, exactly like the line

you quoted, this is the biggest consequence of all,

of all of his belief.

Now, we should remind people, or I should remind people,

I wish I had, I admire it.

I did not write the episode.

This was a Lee Eisenberg and Gene Signitsky episode.

And I hope it doesn't sound like I'm disowning it either,

because I know we talked about

so many people are uncomfortable.

You know, these are two of, I think,

the most brilliant, you know, writers,

backbone of the show.

When a lot of the original staff was burnt out,

these guys took the ball.

And a lot of the sort of center,

central seasons of The Office,

that people, that were really humming,

that was Lee and Gene, were just turning out scripts

and revising scripts they're not even credited for.

So those guys were really an incredible backstop for that.

But, you know, look, Gene in particular,

I think is the best one-liner writer in Office history.

He's the one who wrote,

I'm not superstitious, but I'm a little stitious.

You know, so I would guess he wrote that line.

But yeah, I mean, maybe we're getting a little off track,

but that is sort of this incredible distillation

of why we love Michael so much

and why he's made everyone's life so impossibly difficult,

which is sort of the heart and the comedy of the series,

but it's not usually that intense, you know?

Well, what was it like, BJ?

You talked about, you know, Lee and Gene as the writers,

but you went from writing to directing on The Office.

And what was that shift like,

to go from the writer's room

to being the director of the episode?

It felt very intuitive.

I took it very seriously, but I over-prepared.

I don't think I did any better on the first one

than I did on the fifth one that I did.

But I think that it's just very interesting

what is required to leap from writer to director,

and I think, to an extent, actor to director,

is so much the confidence

to picture yourself saying, action, and cut.

Did you get any advice from anyone

before you started directing?

Yes, I got the best advice,

and I pass it on to anyone who directs.

So the first piece of advice I got,

first of all, it's good advice in general.

Ask everyone for advice.

People love giving advice.

So anytime you wish you had advice in your shot,

I ask them.

People will talk your ear off.

So I asked everybody, what's your advice for directing?

And I should also, we should clarify,

directing an ongoing TV show is incredibly different.

The actors know the characters,

the writers know the story,

the directors of photography and cameramen

know how to shoot it.

If you just stand there and nicely

and intuitively and confidently ask everyone,

how would you shoot this?

How would you schedule this?

Did that feel good to you?

You're fine.

Because the show is set in the pilot stage,

whereas a movie or a limited series,

which is essentially like a long movie,

you have to establish, is there music in the show?

Is this a very colorful show?

Is this a little bit of a campy wink-wink show?

Is it super deadpan?

You have to establish all these things.

But on an ongoing show, it's kind of like,

I look, I took it super seriously

because it's an amazing first step,

but it's not nearly as hard coming into an ongoing show.

Okay, the advice I got from Randall Einhorn,

our longtime director of photography

and later our most prolific director on the show,

I said, do you have advice?

He said, yes.

Direct the cameras like they're actors.

I said, what do you mean?

He said, you'd never tell an actor,

shout this line and cut it off after three seconds, right?

You tell them why.

So you never tell the camera,

swing to the left on this line and punch in on that.

You'd say, this is where we catch Pam in her lie.

So I would creep up to her and find that moment

and don't let her out.

You know what I mean?

And it inspires so much more creativity.

It's so much more respectful

and you're more likely to get what you're looking for.

And I've extended that to direct to everyone

like they're actors.

You don't tell the costume department,

I want him in a suit.

You say, this is a character who's so insecure