Violation Bonus: The Court Ruling Jacob Wideman Was Waiting For (Update)

2023-12-11 00:15:56

Imagine you're accused of something horrific. You swear you didn't do it, but someone says they witnessed it: your own brother. Sophia Johnson was newly married with a baby on the way when she became the prime suspect in her mother-in-law's brutal murder. WBUR's Amory Sivertson reexamines a case unsolved, a family torn apart, and the woman who wasn't believed.

1Speaker 1
00:00.00 – 00:04.36

Support for Violation comes from the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation,

00:04.84 – 00:08.16

committed to building a more just, verdant, and peaceful world.

00:08.46 – 00:11.08

More information at Macfound.org.

00:13.94 – 00:15.68

WBUR Podcasts, Boston.

00:22.12 – 00:26.02

This call will be recorded and subject to monitoring at any time.

00:26.36 – 00:28.30

Thank you for using IC Solutions.

00:28.30 – 00:30.20

You may begin speaking now.

00:30.56 – 00:30.94

Hey, Beth.

00:31.24 – 00:31.76

Hey, there.

00:32.64 – 00:34.08

So, I have a decision.

00:34.82 – 00:36.12

Hi, folks. It's Beth.

00:36.90 – 00:38.70

Remember how I dropped in here in August

00:38.70 – 00:40.60

to tell you the judge had held a hearing

00:40.60 – 00:42.60

in Jake's case and we'd be back

00:42.60 – 00:43.84

when he issued his ruling?

00:44.32 – 00:45.72

Under advisement ruling,

00:46.50 – 00:48.40

on October 4th, 2023,

00:48.78 – 00:50.46

this matter came before the court

00:50.46 – 00:52.72

for argument on Weidman's second complaint

00:52.72 – 00:54.20

for special action relief.

00:54.48 – 00:55.76

At the conclusion of the hearing...

00:55.76 – 00:56.90

Well, here we are.

00:57.40 – 01:00.30

I was in Dallas reporting on a different story

01:00.30 – 01:02.30

in October when the phone rang.

01:02.78 – 01:05.04

It was Josh Hamilton, Jake's attorney.

01:05.54 – 01:07.24

He sounded like someone had died.

01:07.94 – 01:10.46

I didn't have a tape recorder on me in the car that day,

01:10.62 – 01:12.12

but I called him back later.

01:12.58 – 01:14.52

I opened it up and the first thing

01:14.52 – 01:17.26

that jumped off the page to me

01:17.26 – 01:20.02

was that I thought it was very short.

01:20.68 – 01:22.34

It was only about two pages long.

01:23.28 – 01:25.94

And so, as I quickly read through it,

01:25.94 – 01:30.24

I just, you know, I was shocked, I guess.

01:35.18 – 01:37.82

There's a lot to say about the ruling itself.

01:38.18 – 01:39.22

And we'll get to that.

01:39.82 – 01:41.52

But the upshot is this.

01:42.26 – 01:44.22

The judge ruled against Jake.

01:44.90 – 01:46.20

He'll stay in prison.

01:46.66 – 01:48.86

Definitely for at least another year.

01:49.56 – 01:51.70

Possibly for the rest of his life.

01:51.70 – 01:54.36

I was really...

01:55.56 – 01:57.44

surprised is not the word for it.

01:57.92 – 01:59.94

I was shocked. I really was.

02:00.92 – 02:01.56

I...

02:01.56 – 02:03.90

Of all possible outcomes,

02:04.48 – 02:05.42

I didn't think

02:06.20 – 02:09.80

that one was very realistic.

02:10.18 – 02:12.64

I'm going to skip a thorough recap here,

02:12.90 – 02:15.32

because the backstory is long and complicated.

02:15.62 – 02:17.16

And if you're listening to this update,

02:17.26 – 02:18.86

you probably already know it.

02:18.86 – 02:21.06

If you haven't listened to Violation,

02:21.24 – 02:22.34

or our last update,

02:22.50 – 02:24.24

please go back and listen to those first,

02:24.40 – 02:26.16

or this update won't make much sense.

02:26.64 – 02:29.22

But, long story short, Jake was waiting

02:29.22 – 02:31.46

on a Maricopa Superior Court judge

02:31.46 – 02:33.38

to rule on his second special action,

02:33.88 – 02:35.40

which, because you can't technically

02:35.40 – 02:37.16

appeal a parole board's decision,

02:37.40 – 02:39.38

is a sort of sideways way to argue

02:39.38 – 02:41.22

before a judge that the board's actions

02:41.22 – 02:41.92

were unfair.

02:42.50 – 02:44.48

This time around, he was arguing

02:44.48 – 02:47.12

that his second parole revocation hearing,

02:47.12 – 02:49.28

which was ordered by a different judge

02:49.28 – 02:52.02

in 2019, had been just as unfair

02:52.02 – 02:52.90

as his first.

02:53.40 – 02:55.40

And actually, the whole process

02:55.40 – 02:56.74

raised red flags.

02:57.38 – 02:59.32

Jake and his lawyers used that phrase,

02:59.62 – 03:00.54

red flags.

03:01.10 – 03:03.50

The evidence shows, and I'm quoting here,

03:03.94 – 03:05.74

that the Arizona Corrections Department

03:05.74 – 03:07.52

was actively searching

03:07.52 – 03:09.60

for a reason to violate Weidman,

03:09.86 – 03:11.54

that means to revoke his parole,

03:11.88 – 03:13.50

and suggests it may have even

03:13.50 – 03:15.48

deliberately orchestrated the violation.

03:16.60 – 03:18.22

The oral arguments for that

03:18.22 – 03:20.58

second special action were held in August,

03:20.78 – 03:21.94

and that's when we brought you

03:21.94 – 03:23.00

our last update.

03:33.24 – 03:35.24

Remember we told you that, broadly,

03:35.50 – 03:36.96

the judge had three options?

03:37.54 – 03:39.84

The first was to release Jake altogether.

03:40.60 – 03:42.58

Jake and his lawyers knew this was a long shot,

03:42.80 – 03:44.14

but they made the argument anyway.

03:44.14 – 03:46.94

They said that when it comes to Jake's case,

03:47.10 – 03:48.48

the parole board has acted in a way

03:48.48 – 03:50.98

that's, quote, arbitrary and capricious

03:50.98 – 03:52.28

and vindictive,

03:52.54 – 03:54.30

and that because they can't be trusted

03:54.30 – 03:56.46

to be fair, the judge should take

03:56.46 – 03:58.20

the decision making out of their hands

03:58.20 – 04:00.14

and just reinstate Jake's parole

04:00.14 – 04:01.26

and release him.

04:02.50 – 04:04.28

The judge's second option was to order

04:04.28 – 04:06.42

a second do-over of Jake's

04:06.42 – 04:08.46

parole revocation hearing, with or

04:08.46 – 04:10.78

without some additional guidance or guardrails.

04:11.18 – 04:12.74

This is the outcome Jake thought

04:12.74 – 04:14.76

he had a real chance of getting.

04:15.22 – 04:16.98

I thought the worst case scenario

04:16.98 – 04:19.00

was that he would just

04:19.00 – 04:20.98

simply send it back to

04:20.98 – 04:22.96

the board with,

04:23.20 – 04:25.36

you know, no instructions or anything like that

04:25.36 – 04:27.64

and give the board carte blanche

04:27.64 – 04:29.42

again to essentially

04:29.42 – 04:30.66

do what they wanted to do.

04:31.18 – 04:32.50

But I didn't

04:33.10 – 04:35.10

spend a lot of time even conceiving

04:36.42 – 04:37.56

of the idea

04:37.56 – 04:39.38

that he would shoot us down

04:39.38 – 04:39.98

completely.

04:39.98 – 04:42.52

But that's exactly what happened.

04:43.22 – 04:44.66

The judge's third option,

04:45.18 – 04:46.44

the worst case scenario

04:46.44 – 04:47.90

as far as Jake was concerned,

04:48.42 – 04:50.52

the one he says he didn't even spend much time

04:50.52 – 04:52.40

thinking about because he didn't even

04:52.40 – 04:54.62

think it was possible for the judge to find

04:54.62 – 04:56.72

he'd been treated fairly under the law.

04:57.68 – 04:58.60

Judge Mark Brain

04:58.60 – 05:00.44

chose that third option.

05:01.04 – 05:02.02

He said that Weidman

05:02.02 – 05:03.96

failed to demonstrate a basis

05:03.96 – 05:04.96

for relief.

05:05.60 – 05:08.00

The entire decision, header and all,

05:08.00 – 05:09.60

was two and a half pages.

05:10.42 – 05:11.80

Just as a point of comparison,

05:12.42 – 05:14.18

the first judge's ruling on Jake's

05:14.18 – 05:16.86

last special action was 16 pages.

05:17.40 – 05:18.44

The brevity of

05:18.44 – 05:20.46

this opinion was a little bit

05:20.46 – 05:22.06

like an emphatic period

05:22.06 – 05:23.78

at the end of a sentence.

05:24.42 – 05:26.14

Reading this made me feel as though

05:26.14 – 05:28.52

the court was signaling, enough is enough.

05:29.30 – 05:30.06

Daniel Medwed

05:30.06 – 05:31.72

is a professor of criminal law

05:31.72 – 05:33.12

at Northeastern Law School.

05:33.58 – 05:35.26

He has no connection to this case,

05:35.26 – 05:37.34

but I asked him to read the judge's ruling

05:37.34 – 05:38.90

and some of the related documents.

05:39.66 – 05:41.58

Jake's legal arguments to Judge Brain

05:41.58 – 05:42.92

were 87 pages.

05:43.60 – 05:45.62

The board's reply was 101 pages

05:46.36 – 05:47.16

with appendices.

05:47.56 – 05:49.38

Plus, the parties went back and forth

05:49.38 – 05:50.86

in additional dozens of pages

05:50.86 – 05:53.50

about whether the transcript of the revocation hearing

05:53.50 – 05:54.92

was reliable and accurate,

05:55.34 – 05:57.40

all of which is to say there were a lot

05:57.40 – 05:59.56

of complex legal arguments to consider.

05:59.86 – 06:01.98

There was an element of exasperation

06:01.98 – 06:04.34

in the tone of this

06:04.34 – 06:06.76

that I found a little bit disturbing

06:07.76 – 06:09.06

because, of course,

06:09.20 – 06:10.78

I think Mr. Wideman's claim

06:10.78 – 06:12.90

is an eminently credible

06:12.90 – 06:14.72

one to make, which is

06:14.72 – 06:16.98

Arizona, tell me why

06:16.98 – 06:18.38

I'm being recommitted.

06:18.94 – 06:20.74

How possibly could my behavior

06:20.74 – 06:22.84

here, my failure to set up this

06:22.84 – 06:24.56

appointment, how

06:24.56 – 06:27.12

could you go from that indiscretion

06:27.12 – 06:28.86

to a finding of lapsing

06:28.86 – 06:30.08

into criminal conduct?

06:30.56 – 06:32.82

Show me the chain

06:32.82 – 06:34.54

of inferences that led you there.

06:34.82 – 06:37.24

And that strikes me as a very reasonable request.

06:37.78 – 06:38.76

And if the board

06:38.76 – 06:40.74

and the court had actually shown

06:40.74 – 06:42.38

that chain of inferences

06:43.18 – 06:44.94

more clearly and more transparently,

06:45.24 – 06:46.72

I think I would have accepted

06:46.72 – 06:48.28

this opinion more than I did.

06:48.58 – 06:50.96

But Judge Brain agreed with the board

06:50.96 – 06:52.70

that the reasons they had provided

06:52.70 – 06:54.70

to support the idea that Jake was

06:54.70 – 06:56.44

returning to criminal ways

06:56.44 – 06:57.52

were good enough.

06:58.16 – 06:59.88

In fact, at the hearing in August,

06:59.88 – 07:02.38

it was almost as if he invited the board's

07:02.38 – 07:04.02

lawyer, her name is Kelly

07:04.02 – 07:06.34

Gillian Gibson, to explain why

07:06.34 – 07:07.24

they were good enough.

07:07.80 – 07:10.32

It would be improper for me to attempt

07:10.32 – 07:12.32

to explain why a decision

07:12.32 – 07:14.24

maker's decision was correct.

07:14.66 – 07:16.28

I don't even think you need to argue

07:16.28 – 07:18.18

it's correct. I think you need to argue it's

07:18.18 – 07:20.16

plausible. What you can

07:20.16 – 07:22.04

say is plausible is that

07:22.04 – 07:24.26

the delay of time, how often

07:24.26 – 07:26.36

Mr. Wideman delayed getting done

07:26.36 – 07:28.22

what the probation, or excuse me,

07:28.22 – 07:29.84

the parole officer asked him to do,

07:30.28 – 07:32.06

suggests that he was avoiding

07:32.90 – 07:34.14

complying and trying

07:34.14 – 07:35.46

to manipulate the system.

07:35.78 – 07:37.78

And in his ruling, he wrote,

07:38.04 – 07:40.04

quote, the court is not authorized

07:40.04 – 07:42.16

to substitute its judgment for

07:42.16 – 07:44.22

the board's judgment, but instead

07:44.22 – 07:46.36

merely to determine whether the board

07:46.36 – 07:47.82

acted within its discretion.

07:48.78 – 07:50.16

Here, there was evidence

07:50.16 – 07:51.92

that Wideman's parole officer had

07:51.92 – 07:54.02

prodded Wideman to begin counseling with

07:54.02 – 07:56.16

Dr. McCain for some time, and he

07:56.16 – 07:57.32

had failed to do so.

07:58.08 – 08:00.08

Dr. McCain is that therapist who Jake was

08:00.08 – 08:01.36

supposed to make an appointment with.

08:02.22 – 08:04.00

And so, Jake and his attorneys

08:04.00 – 08:05.56

are back to square one.

08:06.34 – 08:08.16

Except for the nine months he was

08:08.16 – 08:10.10

out on home arrest, Jake has now

08:10.10 – 08:11.74

been behind bars for 37

08:11.74 – 08:14.16

years, and he has very few

08:14.16 – 08:14.98

avenues out.

08:15.72 – 08:18.08

He could appeal Judge Brain's decision

08:18.08 – 08:20.06

to the Arizona Court of Appeals

08:20.06 – 08:22.22

and then to the Arizona Supreme Court.

08:22.74 – 08:24.16

If they deny him,

08:24.16 – 08:25.98

he could move over to federal court

08:25.98 – 08:27.88

and start a chain of appeals there.

08:28.46 – 08:30.38

All of this could take years.

08:31.60 – 08:32.44

Like any

08:32.44 – 08:34.16

prisoner who was convicted in the 1980s,

08:34.92 – 08:36.28

before Arizona abolished

08:36.28 – 08:38.48

parole, he also has the option

08:38.48 – 08:40.42

of having a parole board hearing each year

08:40.42 – 08:42.02

and asking for release,

08:42.20 – 08:43.84

just like he did for years.

08:44.98 – 08:46.22

But legally speaking,

08:46.40 – 08:47.76

said his lawyer, Josh Hamilton,

08:48.10 – 08:50.24

doing that would mean he accepts

08:50.24 – 08:52.18

the way things have gone down so far

08:52.18 – 08:54.44

and gives up his chance to appeal it.

08:54.74 – 08:55.68

At a certain point,

08:56.16 – 08:58.24

does Jake just, you know,

08:58.36 – 09:00.10

throw up his hands and just start going before

09:00.10 – 09:01.02

the board every year?

09:01.42 – 09:03.96

Do I put myself back in front of this parole board

09:03.96 – 09:06.42

and explain to them why I'm an appropriate

09:06.42 – 09:07.98

candidate for release on parole?

09:08.54 – 09:10.38

Putting my faith in the same board

09:10.94 – 09:12.44

that twice previously

09:13.16 – 09:14.60

kept me in custody

09:14.60 – 09:16.12

where I didn't deserve to be

09:16.12 – 09:18.52

and wouldn't give me a fair hearing

09:18.52 – 09:20.62

that adhered to the law.

09:20.62 – 09:22.80

But do I trust

09:22.80 – 09:24.40

that I can have a fair hearing on the merits

09:24.40 – 09:26.36

as to re-release on parole?

09:27.40 – 09:28.72

Or do I

09:28.72 – 09:30.86

continue to advance my very real,

09:31.44 – 09:31.92

very

09:32.62 – 09:33.66

well-established

09:34.50 – 09:36.50

legal arguments as to my initial

09:36.50 – 09:37.82

detention in the first place?

09:38.54 – 09:40.34

That's a decision that only he can make.

09:41.14 – 09:42.96

And so far, he's made the decision

09:42.96 – 09:44.56

to continue with his appeals.

09:45.20 – 09:46.52

So, Jake's lawyers

09:46.52 – 09:48.52

are working on crafting the next appeal

09:48.52 – 09:50.64

and Jake is trying to figure out

09:50.64 – 09:52.50

a way forward. He says

09:52.50 – 09:54.34

he's still doing all the things he did

09:54.34 – 09:56.62

for years to stay positive and productive.

09:57.00 – 09:58.44

He's working as a peer

09:58.44 – 10:00.40

mentor. He's reading. He's

10:00.40 – 10:02.32

nurturing his relationship with his family

10:02.32 – 10:04.44

and his wife, Marta, who he married while

10:04.44 – 10:06.44

he was in prison and who has been a source

10:06.44 – 10:07.44

of constant support.

10:07.96 – 10:09.42

But he's angry.

10:10.02 – 10:12.34

I, you know, remember you

10:12.34 – 10:14.58

expressing anger when they brought you back

10:14.58 – 10:16.36

and that being wielded as a weapon

10:16.36 – 10:18.16

against you in front of the parole board.

10:18.26 – 10:20.34

Are you worried about saying

10:20.34 – 10:21.16

that you're angry?

10:22.04 – 10:24.70

If it's inappropriate for me to be upset and angry

10:25.66 – 10:26.46

in this

10:26.46 – 10:27.94

circumstance, then

10:27.94 – 10:30.48

I don't know what circumstance it would

10:30.48 – 10:32.30

be appropriate for me to be angry in.

10:32.54 – 10:34.32

Or, on the other hand, that I'm a

10:34.32 – 10:35.80

sociopath who doesn't feel anything.

10:36.34 – 10:36.62

You know?

10:38.44 – 10:40.24

Jake's dad, the writer

10:40.24 – 10:42.32

John Edgar Wideman, has

10:42.32 – 10:44.42

no qualms about being angry

10:44.42 – 10:46.56

either. During my conversation

10:46.56 – 10:48.46

with him last winter, he was trying to make

10:48.46 – 10:50.64

sense of how the situation had come to this

10:50.64 – 10:52.46

after everything Jake had done

10:52.46 – 10:53.50

to win his freedom.

10:54.20 – 10:56.24

Of course, Jake had no idea

10:57.48 – 10:58.04

that

10:59.44 – 11:00.56

the possibility

11:00.56 – 11:02.44

of five years incarceration,

11:02.82 – 11:04.20

six years, endless, really,

11:04.62 – 11:06.16

a lifetime of incarceration

11:07.06 – 11:08.42

was at stake

11:08.42 – 11:10.44

in terms of how he

11:11.34 – 11:12.58

responded to this

11:12.58 – 11:14.14

allegation that he had missed

11:14.14 – 11:15.08

an appointment.

11:16.08 – 11:18.58

I can't know what the parents of Eric

11:18.58 – 11:20.50

Kane, the boy Jake killed

11:20.50 – 11:22.42

in 1986, are feeling

11:22.42 – 11:24.46

right now. They haven't wanted

11:24.46 – 11:26.36

to speak to me for this project and

11:26.36 – 11:28.16

also asked me, through their attorney,

11:28.38 – 11:30.68

not to contact other people in their lives

11:30.68 – 11:32.62

who might be able to speak to their perspectives.

11:33.38 – 11:34.38

I know they spent

11:34.38 – 11:36.20

years advocating to the parole board

11:36.20 – 11:38.02

to keep Jake behind bars forever.

11:38.50 – 11:40.50

And then once he was out, encouraging

11:40.50 – 11:42.28

corrections officials to arrest him

11:42.28 – 11:43.38

and bring him back in.

11:43.88 – 11:46.62

So I imagine this ruling comes as a relief

11:46.62 – 11:48.62

to them, but a bittersweet one

11:48.62 – 11:50.38

because it won't bring Eric back.

11:50.88 – 11:51.42

Nothing will.

11:59.86 – 12:01.58

What are you feeling?

12:02.12 – 12:04.08

After going on this journey with us,

12:04.42 – 12:06.32

through Jake's childhood, Eric's

12:06.32 – 12:08.20

terrible murder, through seven

12:08.20 – 12:10.02

appearances before the parole board,

12:10.28 – 12:12.22

two special actions, three decades in

12:12.22 – 12:14.12

prison, do you think something went

12:14.12 – 12:16.16

wrong in Jake's case? Or did everything

12:16.16 – 12:17.46

go exactly right?

12:18.00 – 12:19.26

Was justice served?

12:20.70 – 12:22.14

We'd like to hear from you.

12:22.68 – 12:24.14

If you have questions you'd like to

12:24.14 – 12:26.16

ask me, or Jake, or

12:26.16 – 12:28.06

his attorneys, or a victim's rights

12:28.06 – 12:30.02

advocate, or a legal expert,

12:30.24 – 12:32.18

please call and leave your question

12:32.18 – 12:33.64

in a voicemail at

12:35.20 – 12:36.64

347-391-

12:37.58 – 12:38.26

3431.

12:38.80 – 12:41.82

That's 347-391-

12:41.82 – 12:42.64

3431.

12:44.10 – 12:44.78

We're

12:44.78 – 12:46.78

working on one final episode

12:46.78 – 12:48.92

as we watch this case unfold.

12:49.18 – 12:50.48

We'll hear from Jake,

12:50.66 – 12:52.24

from his wife Marta.

12:52.34 – 12:54.66

We'll be talking to state corrections officials

12:54.66 – 12:56.78

working for Arizona's new Democratic

12:56.78 – 12:58.86

governor. The governor came in

12:58.86 – 13:00.98

promising reforms, but so far

13:00.98 – 13:03.02

the state's posture towards Jake's case,

13:03.08 – 13:04.80

at least in court, has not changed.

13:04.80 – 13:06.90

One thing that has changed is

13:06.90 – 13:08.80

that the new administration is willing to talk

13:08.80 – 13:10.88

to us, and we'll bring you their perspectives.

13:11.56 – 13:12.82

We'll answer as many

13:12.82 – 13:14.86

of your questions as we can, and, of

13:14.86 – 13:16.80

course, we'll continue to dig into the big

13:16.80 – 13:18.84

questions that have animated us all

13:18.84 – 13:20.76

along. Is there anything

13:20.76 – 13:22.76

Jake can do to deserve to be free

13:22.76 – 13:24.74

again? Is there anything he

13:24.74 – 13:26.72

could say to convince the board,

13:27.08 – 13:28.98

the courts, the people who loved

13:28.98 – 13:30.80

Eric Cain, that he has served

13:30.80 – 13:32.72

his time and is ready for another

13:32.72 – 13:34.66

chance? Let us know

13:34.66 – 13:36.60

what you think, and we'll see you soon

13:36.60 – 13:38.38

for one last episode of

13:38.38 – 13:39.02

Violation.

13:49.50 – 13:51.82

The world right now feels so

13:51.82 – 13:53.42

unpredictable, right?

13:53.78 – 13:55.64

The idea of feeling reliably

13:55.64 – 13:57.70

safe and sound seems almost

13:57.70 – 13:59.70

out of reach, except when

13:59.70 – 14:01.02

it comes to home security.

14:01.02 – 14:03.20

Because there's SimpliSafe.

14:03.70 – 14:05.04

SimpliSafe's monitoring agents

14:05.04 – 14:07.06

are standing by 24-7 to

14:07.06 – 14:08.96

protect your home and your loved ones

14:08.96 – 14:10.94

in it. With exclusive live

14:10.94 – 14:13.04

guard protection, SimpliSafe agents

14:13.04 – 14:14.82

can act within five seconds

14:14.82 – 14:16.94

of receiving your alarm, and can even

14:16.94 – 14:18.98

see and speak to intruders

14:18.98 – 14:21.04

inside your home, warning them

14:21.04 – 14:22.58

the police are on their way.

14:23.10 – 14:24.96

You might say SimpliSafe is in the

14:24.96 – 14:27.22

peace-of-mind, breathe-easy

14:27.22 – 14:29.30

business. And, oh man,

14:29.30 – 14:30.92

do we need more of that?

14:31.62 – 14:33.02

Protect your home this summer with

14:33.02 – 14:35.06

20% off any new SimpliSafe

14:35.06 – 14:37.22

system when you sign up for FastProtect

14:37.22 – 14:38.94

monitoring. Just visit

14:38.94 – 14:40.64

SimpliSafe.com

14:40.64 – 14:42.74

slash beyond. That's

14:43.30 – 14:44.94

SimpliSafe.com slash

14:44.94 – 14:47.16

beyond. There's no safe

14:47.16 – 14:48.24

like SimpliSafe.

14:52.02 – 14:52.98

It's Madeline

14:52.98 – 14:54.18

Barron from In the Dark.

14:54.60 – 14:56.40

I've spent the past four years

14:56.40 – 14:57.94

investigating a crime.

14:58.10 – 15:00.42

When you're driving down this road, I like to plan on

15:00.42 – 15:00.96

killing somebody.

15:02.62 – 15:04.70

A four-year investigation,

15:05.16 – 15:06.18

hundreds of interviews,

15:06.66 – 15:07.80

thousands of documents,

15:08.26 – 15:10.46

all in an effort to see what the U.S.

15:10.58 – 15:12.46

military has kept from the public

15:12.46 – 15:14.34

for years. Did you

15:14.34 – 15:16.20

think that a war crime had been committed?

15:16.86 – 15:18.54

I don't have any opinion on

15:18.54 – 15:20.58

that. Season 3 of In the Dark

15:20.58 – 15:22.10

is available now,

15:22.40 – 15:23.52

wherever you get your podcasts.

15:25.38 – 15:26.68

I'm Meghna Chakrabarty,

15:26.76 – 15:28.74

host of On Point. At a time

15:28.74 – 15:30.46

when the world is more complex than ever,

15:30.74 – 15:32.80

On Point's daily deep-dive conversation

15:32.80 – 15:34.70

takes the time to make the world

15:34.70 – 15:36.60

more intelligible. From the

15:36.60 – 15:38.80

state of democracy to how artificial intelligence

15:38.80 – 15:40.56

is transforming the way we live and work

15:40.56 – 15:42.52

to the wonders of the natural world.

15:42.90 – 15:44.30

One topic each day.

15:44.58 – 15:46.44

One rich and nuanced exploration.

15:47.20 – 15:48.84

That's On Point from WBUR.

15:49.16 – 15:50.72

Be sure to follow us right here

15:50.72 – 15:51.72

in your podcast feed.

?Unknown Speaker
15:54.32 – 15:55.72

On Point.

v1.0.0.260408-1-a910ba6_os