A Brutally Honest Debate Recap

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau, I'm Jon Lovett, I'm P.B. Thor, I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

Put me back in, put me back in, take away my phone, leave me out of this.

So we all, just like many of you, endured the 90-minute debate between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. I think you're hearing this in the morning, so you probably remember it. Maybe you're fortunate and you don't, but just in case we're going to refresh your memory, here's a clip of what happened. We're at a state where in six weeks, you don't even know whether you're pregnant or not. But you cannot see a doctor and have him decide on what your circumstances are, whether you need help.

He can't hit a ball 50 yards, he challenged me to a golf match, he can't hit a ball 50 yards.

I'd be happy to have a driving contest with him. The reason I got my handicap, which when I was vice president down to a six. I told you before, I'm happy to play golf. If you carry your own bag, think you can do it.

That's the biggest lie, that he's a six handicap of all.

I was an eight handicap.

I really don't know what he said at the end of that sentence, I don't think he knows what he said either.

Okay, that was the debate.

Yeah, I mean, look, debates are a performance, and what you say and how you say it both matter. The optics to start there were very bad tonight. Biden had to answer concerns about his age. I think he exacerbated them.

I counted, I think he smiled twice or three times in 90 minutes.

I mean, this time he looked confused, at times he was looking away. And those clips are already flying around TikTok, that's the online spin war.

No deceptive editing necessary.

Yeah, not much of a war.

I mean, in the substance, I don't think Biden landed the hits he needed to land, we just heard him he needed to prosecute the case against Trump. On abortion there, we heard a clip where he sort of took an abortion answer and wound up at a point. About immigration, I don't think he made a strong economic argument.

I mean, Biden was not forced to do this debate, he wanted this debate on this timeline. This is something. His campaign swerved out of the lane, broke with all precedent in modern political history to seek out a debate outside of the debate commission process in June. And I agreed with that strategy at the time. Because it was an acknowledgment that this race was profiling in a way that would likely lead to Joe Biden losing.

In fact, he did the opposite.

He did the exact opposite of that. And, like you said, it is painful to say this because we adore Joe Biden as a person.

He's a fundamentally decent, wonderful human being, and he has accomplished a fuck of a lot as president that he should be proud of and we should be proud of.

And he has done a good job as president, and I believe that tonight's performance is not a reflection of the kind of president that he is. But it is a very concerning piece of evidence about the kind of candidate he will be in this race. Because you need to ultimately be able to defend your record and make the case against Donald Trump. And there has never in the history of politics been an easier candidate to make a case against than Donald Trump.

He became much more incoherent as the debate went on. Donald Trump did, for sure.

And this was, maybe we'll have another debate, maybe we won't. But this was Joe Biden's best and biggest opportunity to address the single biggest concern about his candidacy. And he did not deliver on that tonight, and that is deeply disappointing.

At first it was shocking, then it was scary, then it was sad, and by the end it was absurd. I'm also, by the way, I'm not really buying this spin that the first 20 minutes were terrible and then he got somehow much better.

We're going to get to that in a bit. We're obviously not the only ones who are thinking this. And that's not just because there's, like, Democrats privately freaking out that that's happening. Most everyone I know in my life is also freaking out, so that's also happening.

AndErson This was a game changing debate in the sense that right now, as we speak, there is a deep, a wide and a very aggressive panic in the Democratic Party. It started minutes into the debate and it continues right now. It involves party strategists, it involves elected officials, it involves fundraisers.

So that was John King. Then. We heard from all sorts of Democrats. Kate Bedingfeld, former White House communications director, said that it was a bad performance. We heard from multiple other Democrats who said that there's members of Congress.

No, the previous worst debate that any of us have ever seen was the first presidential debate last time, and the difference between that debate and this debate. And I think part of the reason this debate feels worse is that was a despicable display. But we didn't come away thinking that the race had suddenly tilted against Joe Biden. This was a horrible debate to watch.

Joe Biden won that debate, clearly.

Everybody walked away, saying that was the worst debate they'd ever seen.

Most people watched it and thought, I hate politics.

I think people had the exact same reaction to this. Nobody came away from this loving politics.

Or loving Donald Trump, by the way, it would be clear. I don't think Donald Trump picked. And no one was like, Oh, you know what? Donald Trump has assuaged my concerns about him not being a fucking lunatic. I don't think that happened, but I think people were fucking. I mean, it's not just that Joe Biden needed to make the case against Donald Trump in a debate.

Alley Cats.

Alley Cats, right? He didn't bring up almost any of Donald Trump's vulnerabilities in a coherent way.

Let's talk about Trump's performance for a minute.

Trump lied constantly, he lied about his position on abortion, he lied about Covid, He lied about January 6th. He blamed Pelosi for the insurrection.

I am open to the idea that we are freaks who watch this in a way that is different from the way maybe undecided voters would watch it right. There was dials that came out throughout saying people dislike them both. I'm open to.. ..

I can see that.

Completely can see that. And by the way, I'm also open to the possibility that this debate doesn't have a severe impact, that the actual impact of it won't be as long lasting. And I'm extremely open to the possibility that Joe Biden can come back with us. But I think, John, what you're getting at here is. I think the reason this felt so dispiriting and so important is because the way in which he lost this debate. At a time when he needed to change the dynamic makes us very, very concerned that he cannot change the dynamic in any other setting. That he is not the person to make this argument, for himself or against Donald Trump.

And again, so we watched the debate end. And then Joe Biden appeared at a watch party, and he was much more energetic at the watch party. He was much more coherent, though, even there, because everyone was like, Well, where was that, Joe Biden? Yeah, energy wise, coherence wise, for sure.

It was not good, everyone's grating on such a curve. It was just a weird, one minute speech.

It was a weird.

Well, that's the one that you can't.

A handful of things can be true at the same time, right? That Joe Biden's performance was very bad at a very bad time, that. It's also true that if you were to show swing voters who did not watch the debate only footage of Donald Trump speaking, they would be very unhappy with Donald Trump.

Oh, for sure, and I would be shocked if they weren't, yeah.

I mean, he did nothing to improve his standing in the race. All he did was just be better than Joe Biden, right? And I would say what Trump did do for all of his bad policy positions. Refusal to answer questions, his repeated lies is he was more restrained than he was in 2020. And so you could watch that and not come away with the idea that he is like.

No, because Trump gets a convention speech, Biden gets a convention speech. They're planned.

They're mostly watched by partisans.

And partisans watch them 100%.

And the other way you do it is by waking up every single day, dominating the media conversation and making a compelling, relentless argument for yourself and against the other person. Joe Biden has not done that in this presidency at any point.

And look, if suddenly he wakes up tomorrow and can do that for the next several months, right then great, right? So happy.

You were doing multiple, you're doing multiple rallies a day, you were doing every single possible media hit you can do. You're going into unfriendly territory to do things that go viral, right? You know, it's like Trump was on I don't know which. Paul Logan, Paul Jake Paul's podcast.

There was one question and answer that I thought was kind of damaging for Trump, and I wondered if you guys agreed? He was asked, What do you say to voters who think you violated your oath? On January 6th? And Trump said on January 6th? We had a great border. on January 6th, we were energy independent.

Rhetorically, it was clever, but I wonder if you were like, What are you talking about?

That was my reaction. I thought it was bizarre. And I'm like, it seemed like something that they had planned. And I was like, that is not, that is, that cannot be effective.

Clever was the wrong, it was like it was a rhetorical only answer that never touched the substance.

It's like giving, like, what do you call those things? a fidget spinner to a kid? Where it's just like, here's something he will say that will not likely not damage him more than what he would say on his own.

This is the problem, right? Because there's Joe Biden standing there. And he's not lithe or fast, or direct enough to be able to counterpunch in any of these moments.

He tried there, he said. He tried to get him to say, Well, you denounced the proud boys, you told them to stand by. Well, you denounced the insurrections. But he just couldn't get it out.

He couldn't get it out, everyone ignored it. And by the way, I just. I also want to say I'm really not up for a debate about CNN and their role in this. If you watched that debate and you came away thinking the problem was CNN. Go for a walk outside, that is ridiculous.

So speaking of CNN, so the first debate in 2020, the CNN post-debate poll. Joe Biden. 60 of voters thought Joe Biden won. 28 thought Donald Trump won. Tonight. The poll just came out. 67 of voters think Donald Trump won. Only 33 think that Joe Biden won. It's a big swing, it's a 66-point swing towards Trump.

A tiny bit of purchase on which to have hope.

And then at the end, they're all undecided voters, and all of them think that Joe Biden should step aside. There was a focus group on MSNBC just before we started. One of the voters said I love Joe Biden's policies. I think Donald Trump's despicable, but Joe Biden can't execute. We should have an open convention.

I love that moment with that, there was a despondency with that person because what you got was how much. They dislike Donald Trump and understand already that Donald Trump doesn't fight for them, doesn't care about them, isn't out for them. But they see Joe Biden, even though they want to be for Joe Biden. What they saw made them really, really concerned, and this is what voters have been saying.

After the Robert Hur special counsel report.

The Robert Hur Special Counsel report. Joe Biden turned to the door, turned back creakily and said, Watch me. And by the way, I this entire time have been just very uncertain about what was the more dangerous or risky path. Given the threat, Trump poses right, do you trust that Joe Biden can overcome these concerns about his age enough to make this case? Or do you believe you should go down the messy and unknown path of seeking out a different nominee? And I think what we saw tonight means we need to have that debate.

Yeah, I think there, I think it's totally acceptable to wonder, aloud and openly talk about the path of the convention. I think it's totally legitimate for folks to say, you know what? Actually? I think sticking with Joe Biden is the best chance we have at winning, so we all should do that. What is not acceptable is telling people to stop bedwetting. Or that they didn't see what they saw, or that, oh, you guys just need this.

And by the way, the staff around him, he has a great campaign team, the staff is fantastic. Yes, they are doing everything right. The person who is to blame right now is Joe Biden, because he has told all of us I am the guy he has thought it through. I am the guy, bet on me, I'm going to do it. And then he did this.

You can't debate for him, he has to debate.

They are doing these jobs because they know they love Joe Biden, they have to love Joe Biden. They also know that you have to defeat Donald Trump. And this is as we sit here right now, that is the way to do it. The choice is right now, as of today, there will be a conversation in the coming days is elect Joe Biden or we get Donald Trump.

And he had a week of practice.

And probably should have had two, right? And so it's just it is like they. This was a big moment and he did not deliver in a big moment, right? And it's very frustrating.

And look like you said, Dan. It's a choice between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Like, if we get through the convention and everyone does. And Joe Biden says, I'm not stepping down, and there's no other Democrats, step up and all the. You know, I've seen a lot of the elected Democrats tonight on TV, which understandable. It's like, right after the debate, say like, No, we're sticking with Joe Biden, that's great.

It is because the threat Donald Trump poses that we have to have this debate right now about whether or not it should be. Joe Biden. Do not tell us that because Donald Trump is a threat, we cannot have this conversation. That is ridiculous.

And I think, just to be crystal clear about one thing, I did not come away from this debate. Wondering whether Joe Biden can do the job of president. He can, he has been doing it, he's done a great job of doing it. I came away deeply concerned about his ability to wage the campaign he needs to wage to defeat Donald Trump.

President is a much harder job, it's a much more important job, but candidate is a different job, right? And it's primarily a communications job. It's an ability to go out every day and make a case.

And it's always important. But when you're running against an authoritarian who could threaten democracy, then, like, it's not just about being a good candidate. That is part of the job of being president in this moment. Right now is making the case for why democracy is the better system, and he has not made that case.

Not, they've given their names to Axios.

Yeah, they're on. This is not on the record. One said, I am in a state of shock, the other, Uh, the other said. Jamal Bowman is the hero we need right now. we need him to pull the fire alarm.

A couple of that that's making the rounds, that wasn't making the round.

Uh, one female has, Democrats said, it's time for a woman to save both these men from their misery. President Whitmer has a strong ring to it. So that's just a sample of, uh, some of what we're getting from, uh, and I'll just say.

Like, I imagine this is true for you guys.

I probably got like two dozen tweets tonight from friends in and out of politics, every single one of them was as anxious as we sound. This is not like a political insider like Ajita group. Think things like all my friends from all parts of my life, just being like, what's happening?

People who don't tune into politics, people who don't pay attention. Like, there's not a single person who was like, Eh, it's actually not that bad.

I feel like I want to come back to something you said, which is that you said like that. The word panic feels strange. Both like, like, too big and too small, because I think I think the problem, right, is like, what's a little patronizing?

It's like, Oh, those Democrats, which I get.

Well, because we are often we are like that.

Yes, for sure, and I think, I think what makes this different is that, like, it's not a panic in that. I think people, people are not overreacting. And this is a a moment where people are reflecting not just on the debate, but what led to this moment, right? And the and the collective sense in which we couldn't make a change, and all the conversations and debates we've been having for a long time.

And some people will say this conversation only helps Trump. Yeah, it does, and no one wants to be having it. But our hand was forced. You know what else helped Trump?

The 90 minutes that we just saw.

Yeah, it does.

Anyway, let's go to favorite moments.

I think one other point I think is worth making is we had some, by the way. By the way, I want you guys to know something. We went, we were deep gallows, humor. By the end of this thing, it was we were, we were drinking and we were getting through it.

We went through it from stunned silence to gallows humor in about 20 minutes.

I liked when we were talking about how many historians said Trump was the worst president.

Yeah, I mean, it was just that's, you know, yeah, by the way. Kamala Harris was on TV. Afterwards, Anderson Cooper interviewed her. I believe she went on MSNBC, though.

No one thinks it was fine.

And you know what? And I do, I think, that just telling people to deny what they saw, telling people to deny objective reality. It's just not, it's just not effective. Forget about whether it's right or wrong, it's just not effective.

I'm going to be very interested to see how what Biden does at the rally he has in North Carolina tomorrow. Because a if this was Obama right, and this was sort of true. After that, Robin debate is he makes a self-deprecating joke about it.

Right?

And then tries to deliver a much better performance. Like, will Biden do that?

Right?

Yeah, I do have. There is one upside to this debate. He will not be attacked. Tomorrow. It's over for performance enhancing drugs.

Silver lining, that's good.

There you see people. There were people pausing and trying to feed Joe Biden Adderall through the television. I did.

Yeah, this is why you don't do time release, this is why you do that.

Yeah, you got it, yeah, you got it.

You're up all night.

Just it kicked in, right, it kicked into the party, yeah.

Right, right.

That was the problem.

And poor Joe Biden is going to be up all night.

We did have a spirited debate about golf games. Yeah, yeah, handicaps.

That was wild.

That was.

But all of this stuff is even more frustrating because it goes to show, like, how vulnerable Trump is. Like, the guy was an incoherent mess he was talking about, he was like a little. I would say that we were talking about. The first 15, 20 minutes, I would say like, Trump was the best in the first 15 minutes, and then Trump really declined throughout the debate.

Biden got him upset, and then Trump became more of the Trump, we know.

One of the most obvious differences between watching the first debate four years ago and the first debate now is. Something has happened to Joe Biden's voice that has made it softer, more frail, and has led him to cough a lot. And again, I know I'm talking optics, and optics doesn't matter when you're doing the job of president, but it matters a lot as a candidate. And it just makes it hard for him to get his point across and to get these lines out. And to string together arguments over the course of two minutes in a way that is compelling, or even, at times, like, fully understandable.

I mean, we should know. I mean, yeah, you're correct. Under all scenarios that his voice has changed, he also. It came out that he had a cold.

Has he had it since January?

Well, I mean, like, he sounded worse than usual, and the first like it sounded like he had to cough and he could not cough in the first 15 minutes. Now, why his campaign did not put out the fact that he had a cold in advance of that?

Well, I'll just say, so, you know what, me and Tommy and Lovett? We went to the fundraiser in L.A. with President Obama and Jimmy Kimmel, and Biden was very much like he was tonight at that fundraiser. That was also after he had flown from the G7 in Italy 15 hours to L.A. and that was his second trip to Europe in the same week. So we chalked it up as like, Yeah, that was a pretty bad performance.

Look, and by the way, we have tried, like we saw him at the State of the Union, where he delivered, we did. It's also like, Oh, okay, he had a cold and his voice is gravelly and not as strong as it used to be. That doesn't explain why. Halfway through an answer about abortion, he pivoted to a different answer about immigration.

That's a classic debate move.

You pivot from your strongest issue to your weakest issue mid-sentence.

Did Donald Trump bring up the attack? No, you got to bring up the attack yourself. That's a it's, you know, and he can't do it, that you bring it up yourself. You see what I'm saying.

It's a he got rattled by his performance, like he knew, he knew that he messed up that first question. And I know, cause we, you know, we've prepped cancer debates before. You tell them the first 10 minutes matter more than anything else. And he knew, he knew he messed that up and he got in his head because he had. He clearly had an answer on abortion, and he had an answer on this attack that he knew Trump was going to make about this woman who was killed.

And he just, you know, he combined them.

He combined them. Yeah, you also practice, though, like in debate prep. I'm sure you say to him over and over again, Sir, your face is going to be visible through the duration of the debate. Every time Donald Trump speaks, they're going to be looking at you too.

That's what's so funny about this.

A disaster this time.

Not how funny, but yeah.

I mean, like, you know, the staff prepped him on that.

You can either laugh or you can cry. Cause we watched the we all rewatched the First 2020 debate earlier this week, and Trump did a terrible job of that in the first debate.

Sweaty, angry.

Sweaty, he's like, angry.

He's muttering himself and Biden that whole, he did. That's what he nailed in that debate is he stared at that camera the whole time. Every time Trump said something crazy, Biden gave it that classic Biden smile, and he did the exact opposite of that in this debate.

I think now we're getting to the point in the pod where we're all saying the same thing over and over again and want to kill ourselves. Right exactly. Do we have any final thoughts?

Yeah, I don't, I actually don't have. We just watched the debate and I think we're all feeling a bit gobsmacked and I think that's a feeling to trust for a bit.

I'm going to go back to my hotel room and watch it one more time before I go to bed.

Oh, you really, Jesus Christ, love yourself.

I'm going to take the same xanax they gave Joe Biden before the debate and knock myself the fuck out. But I think a bunch of friends, yeah, yeah, right, no. But I feel like the two texts I'm getting from a lot of people. And I'm sure is a shared experience. With some combination of what do we do and are we doomed? Was like, I feel like a lot of people are saying that and what do we do?

Like, I'm not gonna pretend tonight wasn't anything but terrible. The next few days will probably be worse. Because what tends to happen is the the negative feelings about a debate. Performance like this turn into articles which gets shared around. It compounds and the spin gets worse and worse, and it becomes a bit of a spiral. But the fact is, we have gotten like, a couple of months is a lifetime. In politics, I'm not saying that to like spin for Joe Biden.

We got to shut down the idea to article pipeline, that is the fucking problem.

Per Dem source, live tracking of the debate show that Trump's support tanked when he said he wouldn't accept the results of the election. Again. Not surprising, there was some good responses for Biden from some Midwest swing voters. So I'll take that for what you will. And then Trump's January 6th and Roe responses were also unpopular.

This Biden going to that watch event, Biden taking these questions is the first steps you do to address a bad debate. Performance like this signal that they know and that we'll see a rally tomorrow. There's. The next 48 hours are going to be fascinating about how everyone else in the party responds and what Biden does. But it is worth reminding that we're going to hear this from everyone. Why isn't the DNC go to Biden and tell him there?

Yep.

And people can counsel him on it, people can counsel him privately, publicly, whatever it may be, it's his decision. So all right wish.

By the way, but listen, as the debate was winding down. And we're all kind of like, our eyes are kind of bleeding from the side. Like kind of trying to find different kinds of alcohol to put together. I looked around. We're in this room, we're watching it together, we're doing our best to laugh through it. I just like we had a good time.

We had gummy bears.

We tried our best.

We had gummy bears, wine and beer.

And we made the best of it.

You know what, guys?

We've got a great team here.

French Fries.

We're all going to get through it together, you bet everyone.

Hug a lip this weekend.

Hug a lip this weekend.

Did you say we're stronger together?

All right, everyone, we'll talk to you tomorrow night in Boston. Why?

Bye everyone.

If you want to get ad-free episodes, exclusive content, and more, consider joining our Friends of the Pod Subscription community at Crooked.