"Rachel Maddow"

Watch this. Here we go. Ready? 3, 2, 1.. 3, 2, 1..

3, 2, 1.. Listener, I have to apologize for my colons. Hey, did we do all the 3, 2, 1s?

Yeah. Welcome to SmartLess.

So,

Thank you. Yeah.

Did you kiss the tarmac when you got off your plane?

I did. I always do that.

So, you asked him, as soon as you get off the plane, you say, hey, can I just go down the little stairs here on the jetway? I just need to kiss the tarmac.

Well, yeah. I mean, it's the only way to get off this plane was to get off the stairs onto the jetway. Oh, my God.

You're trying to do a private joke. You definitely went commercial, at least, right, from England? Of course I did. I had an incredible,

as you guys saw in that photo, I had an incredible time at Liverpool.

Yeah, with the Jurgen.

Sean, Will's doing really well. He's flying private, occasionally. He's on the pitch in Liverpool. He's got a real porny looking mustache on his face today.

I got a fresh new haircut. He's real boyish. Yeah, I went up to Liverpool. I watched them play at Anfield, which is their ground. It was like such a dream come true for me.

Yeah. Why don't you bring Tom on the show one of these days?

He's a nice fella. I'd like to. He's the best. He's got a lot to say. So anyway, Tom is part of, obviously, the group that they own, the Red Sox, and they own, Liverpool and the Pittsburgh Penguins.

He's got me interested. Scotty has a CPAP.

And Billy Hogan, who runs the team day to day, he's also a massive, massive Smartless fan. Listens to every episode. Really? Yeah. Every episode.

Well, let me, because I know what a little boy you are, in the best sense of the word, when it comes to Liverpool or your Formula One.

What was amazing was, and I don't know if it's because Pep had told Jürgen or Jürgen actually knew, but Jürgen Klopp, who I totally admire, he comes towards me smiling. And I, of course, I do it to everybody. I do it to my agent. I go, hey, Jürgen, Will Arnett. And he goes, I know who you are.

That's so cool. Sean, we got a Chappie. mention. Yeah, we got a Chappie.

We did. But we're, you know, Smartless, we are the official podcast of Liverpool Football Club.

That's so exciting. I got a flat tire yesterday. Should we get to the guest?

Yeah. No, hang on, Sean. By the way, here's the other thing I was going to say. So, I come back stateside, as we say, and Sean's juggling his bosoms. I come back and I start watching football and American football.

Yeah.

I see you two clowns every 10 minutes in your...

Sorry about that.

Yeah. In your Verizon spot. Yeah. You guys, I love you guys both. And you're in there and you're hilarious.

And the great Will Speck and Josh Gordon directed it.

Yeah, well, yeah.

And it made me so happy to see you guys.

Well, here's the deal. The problem is that, you know, they came to us because the iPhone and Verizon is a fan of Smartless. So, they thought to come to us. The reason, listener, that Will is not on that is because he's got a prior commitment with a phone company.

Yes, I have. Jason, you're right. I have a prior commitment with a phone company. But what was fun was...

There's more money for me and Sean, basically.

Yeah. Coming home and coming back and seeing you guys on the air. It was like I'd been gone because it was Monday Night Football. I was like, look at these guys. Look at these clowns.

Sean, you were very good. You were very good that whole day, Sean.

Well, likewise.

Now, wait. Was that the first... Sean, it's the first time you and I have acted together, right?

I think so. Yeah. I think it was. Yeah.

We did the doc and everything, but that was just us playing. I guess we were playing ourselves in this spot too. But anyway, it was a real dream.

Good God, you made me laugh.

First of all, you both look... And Jason, I want to say that you didn't look great. You did not look puffy.

Really?

Yeah, you looked very...

I think there may have been a little bit of help in post-production. I look like I could use some help. Smooth out my eyes just a little bit. Just a little under the eyes, I think, in post-production. No, that's okay.

And they may have done... It's called tough production.

Yeah, tough production. But I don't know. Listen, you know, you got to be pretty on TV. Yeah.

What?

Just bring him on.

She has a degree from Stanford. She's a gifted fisherman. She's got part Dutch, Canadian, English, Irish, Russian. She plays volleyball, basketball. She also has multiple Emmys.

What the heck?

She's written four books, had a crossword puzzle in the New York Times, had her own radio show, a couple of podcasts, and her own TV show. What's happening? She's a hero to some and inconvenient to others. Please welcome Robert and Elaine's daughter, David's sister, Susan's partner, and one of my personal heroes, America's own, Rachel Ann Maddow. Oh, my God.

Yeah.

Now, that's a booking. That's a booking. I'm like going to cry. I'm going to cry. Cry on me.

This is crazy. This is a top-notch booking, David.

I know.

How did you get to me by saying, you got to be pretty to be on TV?

Okay, let's go to the guest. That was cruel.

You're very... Rachel, I've been mistaken for you so many times.

We should check in in the morning about who's using the haircut today.

That should be noted until he talks.

Oh, my God. That reminds me. I'll never forget Will. Amy cracked me up one day. She said, didn't she call herself...

Who said that?

Amy Poehler. Did she really? Called herself that once. I thought it was a funny thing.

Actually, that's kind of a good party game. Which MSNBC host, are you?

That is not bad.

Rachel, I saw you walking down the street in New York one time a couple of years ago.

That's a creepier start to your story. Keep going.

I was following closely behind you in a van down 6th Avenue.

I could smell you as you passed.

And I was like, Rachel, screw it. And I was like, no, no, no, I can't. I'm too nervous. I was too nervous.

Was I doing something weird or was I just getting groceries or something?

No, you were just walking.

Rachel, I am so, so excited that you are here.

Yes. Yeah, Jason talks about you all the time.

I mean, all I do is watch MSNBC. It's true. It's 12 hours a day.

It's true.

Do you think you are Joy Reid if you had to be one of us?

There isn't anyone. I don't love on that. Anyway.

I think. if I am any other host, I think I'm Chris Hayes.

Chris Hayes hangs his sun for me.

I could see that. I've seen you guys sort of go back and forth a little bit over the years, and you seem like you guys legitimately get along very well. You see eye to eye.

Yeah.

Very collegial workplace here. People like each other.

But now we no longer have the handoff. A, you're only one day a week, and that one day a week, you're leading now as Jen Psaki. Another past guest of ours.

I loved her guest with you guys.

Oh, good. She's awesome.

Now, do you think she's going to be as good at the on-time handoff as Chris was? He was never late. It's true. He was so good about cutting off guests and getting to you on time.

So humbling, because he made such an effort to always make sure at 9,000, I was ready to go. Whereas I'm always traipsing like a minute and a half into Lawrence's show.

Oh, you do 10 minutes with Lawrence on his, because he makes sure he's got to tell everybody who he's got, while he's still got your audience, which I get. I would do the same thing.

Wait, I got a question, Rachel. It's kind of to that point. What's fascinating to me about what you do is how you fill in the gaps, and you constantly have something to talk about endlessly.

Is that embarrassing?

How much of that is on a prompter or on a card?

She's not winging it like we do.

I don't have any other life, for example. I don't have things. It's just this. Anything. where it's me talking to the camera, I have written it down.

Like, for instance, your interview with Cassidy Hutchinson the other day was incredible. You were certainly prepared for that. You had questions that were very specific, that we all really wanted to hear the answers on, and she was incredible and forthcoming.

I mean, book. interviews are great, but it's got- I mean, I'm only interested in talking to people about a book if I'm interested in the book, and so I've always read the book. But once you've read the book, you don't have to do that much other preparation, as long as you grok it and you kind of understand what's going on.

Rachel, explain to the guys what a book is. Neither of them reads ever.

You read an entire book for one interview.

It's alarming.

It's just stunning.

You know how stuff gets stapled together? You move the staple to the long side of the paper.

You still don't have that. And it's left to right, top, to bottom, right?

Put it in TV terms. Just put it in like a television program. Imagine a television program, but all the dialogue was- What else would I do?

Crunched into-.

It's cue cards you can hold.

You know what, Rachel-.

Yeah, but what I was saying is just that, the ability to, like, when, if something goes wrong or the satellite didn't connect, sorry, we can't get them, and you just fill the space right away.

Well, by the way, I will say, and Rachel, just so you don't have to be too embarrassed about why you are so smart, I will say that part of the thing is that, because I imagine someone like Rachel is so well-read that she's able to talk on many different subjects at all times, because she has points of reference other than, you know, The Golden Bachelor, you guys.

Which is embarrassing for the two of you.

I know, neither can I, by the way. I've never watched any of The Bachelors.

No, never, and I want to watch that one.

What does it take to be golden? How old is he?

Over 50?. He's 72..

You know, they did The Golden Bachelor once in Germany, but that was different. It was a different show.

Here, get rid of the joke.

So-.

Here we go.

No, it is what you think it is.

I've been there. Sure.

No, but, Rachel, you have said, and when I say that, I'm talking about my research on Wikipedia, that you think you have an obligation to, since you have a light on the camera, that you need to have something to say when that light comes on. And you're very responsible in making sure that you're prepared and you're brilliant at doing that A-block where you are giving us some story we have no idea what the hell you're talking about for a few minutes in the best way, and then you land the plane and contextualize what this story of history was as it pertains to something that's going on today. Yeah, I love that. And it's just, thank you for that. You hold my hand every night or once a week now.

That's the way that I learn. If something's going on that I think is interesting or important, I want to be able to say why it's interesting or why it's important. And usually that involves some sort of origin story or some sort of historical analog or something like that. That's usually where those stories come from. But when it comes to just having something to say, it's just.

Rachel, tell me if this rings true for you at all. If someone like you, you went to Stanford, you're a Rhodes Scholar, you're really well-educated, you obviously can speak to a number of different big issues. There used to be a time when somebody like you came along and was so well-informed and was so smart and able to really deal with a lot of complex issues. at one time, they would maybe turn all their talents to the public sector. They would try in a way to serve in government, et cetera, et cetera.

Of course.

It's nice of you to think of it that way. I mean, I definitely feel like my job is trying to understand things myself so that I can explain them for lots of people. And so that is a very satisfying job, particularly at a time when things... I think the news feels overwhelming or devastating to lots of people. To have it be your job, the thing you get paid to do, to try to understand it and explain it in a way that makes sense, that's real, it's a very therapeutic thing.

There's no money in it and you can't get a table at a restaurant, as Jason said.

But... I get it. But talk more about that, Rachel, because that's...

Yeah, it's interesting. Like. I really feel like what I'm doing now has a bigger impact, but I have to have less ego about what it is, because I'm not... Like trying to change one... Like.

We'll be right back.

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And now back to the show.

So, Rachel, your latest book, Prequel, is a bit of a cautionary tale. yet. Yes, that is applicable to what we're talking about right here. That, in fact, America went through this at least once before, right around World War II. is this story that you've uncovered, correct?

Yeah. I mean, it's basically, I think it's a positive story because there was all these Americans who fought against it, but there was this really big fight in the lead up to World War II in this country against the fascist movement in this country that in a lot of cases was actually working with Nazi Germany to try to set up a similar form of government here. And we had paramilitary groups and we had a Nazi agent working with lots of members of Congress on a big propaganda effort.

And it was seemingly a very big movement that had quite a bit of support. And, you know, there's lots of documentation to that, right?

The, you know, the most famous industrialist in the country, Henry Ford, was part of it. The biggest national hero at the time, Charles Lindbergh, was a big part of it.

I'm watching the documentary. I just watched it and started watching last night. It's called the United States and the Holocaust.

Oh, yeah. Ken Burns.

Yes. It's fascinating.

And he has a lot on Charles Coughlin and Lindbergh. Yes. So Coughlin was the biggest media figure we've ever had in America. And he was a self-described fascist and a rabid anti-Semite. And he set up armed militia groups around the country among his followers.

Good guy. Was there a remedy that came from this that we could perhaps learn from to sort of offset what we're dealing with?

Dude, we tried. I mean, I don't know if you've seen, but there's been other people who have come in and take over the media, and they're not necessarily American.

Oh, yeah.

Right. And it's like, like you were saying, we keep making the same fucking mistake. What is, what's the change? What is the change that needs to happen?

Yeah. How did they get through it then that maybe we could kind of draft off now? Yeah.

That's why I wrote the book is that I actually think there's a bunch of, like, lessons learned, things to, you know, post-it notes, things to remember for 80 years from now. when this comes around again. I mean, obviously the Nazis are, there's nobody like the Nazis. That's not the analogy. The analogy is a domestic.

That was their slogan.

Don't settle for second best.

We're the worst you've ever met.

But is, is there, is there, is there one thing that we should focus on to maybe?

It's, it's that there can't just be one thing. And so there, it's just, everything has to happen at once. So there has to be, when it's crimes, when there's violence, there has to be prosecution. Like the criminal justice system has a role, and it's really important to protect them from being intimidated. The risk of violence that I was talking about in the 1944 sedition trial, which I write about in the book, the attorney general was actually pressured by a senator who was implicated in the plot, was pressured by that senator into firing the prosecutor.

So you're saying that we could live in a world where a president could escape punishment because, potentially, the Southern District of New York would refuse to... I mean, I'm just... Look, I'm dealing in hypotheticals here.

Well, maybe what might be even more apt, another book that you wrote, Bagman, correct me if I'm wrong, is the Spiro Agnew, there was a deal offered him that may or may not potentially be a precedent for what could shape the possible conclusion of any sort of Trump sentencing.

Well, what happened with Agnew is that they hit him with a 40-count federal indictment, which sounded amazing at the time, and now we're up in the 90-something count federal indictment, and so he sounds like a piker. But yeah, they were hitting him with that felony indictment, and he so didn't want to go to jail. that his very able lawyers negotiated a deal where he'd plead no low, he'd plead effectively no contest to one felony, and he would avoid jail time, but the penalty was that he had to resign from office.

And agree never to go into politics again, correct?

You know, I asked the prosecutors who were involved in that if that was a contingency, if they said you can never run again, and they said, we never thought that we would ever have to put that in writing, because who would ever think of voting for somebody?

who'd been charged with felonies? But wasn't this right at the moment, where they were pretty sure Nixon was either going to resign or be impeached? Or die. And that Spiro Agnew with all of these, what was it, tax fraud or something like that, the possibility was strong that he could end up in jail as a result of that prosecution, but then be appointed president, because Nixon was on his way out, and they didn't want a president to be incarcerated, because it would just be a nightmare. So they offered him this deal.

This whole idea that you can't bring a prosecution against a sitting president, that whole idea really was crystallized and formalized at the Justice Department around Nixon and Agnew, because the Attorney General at the time, Elliot Richardson, is one of the people who was getting middle of the night drunken phone calls from Nixon, ranting and raving and seeming like a crazy person. The Attorney General thought he was in such bad shape that he was going to die and that Agnew was going to be elevated. And it was tax evasion, but it was also bribery and extortion and all these other corruption crimes. And they thought, my God, we've got to figure out a way to get him out of there.

But there's also that thing, they probably never imagined it, Rachel, because there was a thing back then that people had. that was called shame. They'd reach a certain point,

and now people are so ashamed.

How do you call it? Shisham?

Yeah, where they'd be like, even a guy like Spiro, he's like, I'm not going to go fucking do that. I can't do that. That's indecent. at the highest level. I've done a bunch of other shit, but doing that now, it doesn't matter.

You can't assume that, you know.

Such a dumb, dumb question to all of this is like, why do people go into politics? I don't understand. The second you get elected, you got a target on your back and then they're involved in everything we're talking about, where I'm going to get you, I'm going to sue you, I'm going to sue you. And it's just, it seems like an endless game of that.

I mean, you can do good stuff in politics. Like government can do good things, but a lot of people go into politics because they want power and they want ego.

It's certainly not for the money, right? Doesn't? an average senator make far, far less, probably a 10th of what they could make in the private sector being a lawyer. Most of these senators would be the top lawyer in their district. So they're taking a big pay cut.

Although they all seem to do very well after they leave office. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, you ever seen a poor ex-senator?

What did they call Menendez? Like a gold bar Bobby or something like that? I thought it was pretty funny.

She worked at the middle school.

Okay, but there was clearly, there was that great sort of cocktail of those two things at the dinner table for you to start getting interested in those worlds. Yes, and did politics, was it an early passion or do you find it later?

No, not at all. It's interesting. We weren't like a kid's book kind of family. Like we didn't have that. That wasn't the vibe.

Take it easy, Will. Take it easy, Will. Wait a second, we're gonna pause. Your mom's Canadian?

Here we go.

She's from Newfoundland.

She's from Newfoundland?

Oh, there he goes.

Oh, there, bye. I'm gonna say, you know, I'm Canadian, I'm from Toronto. We're gonna say hi to all our buddies out there in Newfoundland. there, buddy. Hey, there.

Hey, Torbay. Yeah. Hey, Kander.

No way.

That's amazing.

Yeah, big family, lots of sisters who are nuns. She didn't want to be a nun, didn't want to be a nurse, afraid of the sight of blood, and didn't want to be a teacher, didn't much like children. So she left, came to the United States, ended up meeting my dad when he was in the Air Force. But yeah, I sort of grew up reading the newspaper and sort of was like more interested in news. But then, by the time I was sort of figuring out who I was in my teenage years, it was like the real height of the AIDS crisis.

But did you guys talk about current events and stuff at the dinner table? Were you that kind of family? Were you talked about what was going on? No.

Not really, wasn't really like that. No, I mean, it was great. I mean, my parents are fantastic. They're my favorite people in the world. But it just wasn't that kind of a vibe.

Drive time.

No way, Rachel Maddow on the Morning Zoo is the greatest.

News girl was my title. No way.

All right, we're here with the Weasel and Woody. And here with Rachel, here's the girl. Wait, Sean, your dad was in the air for it, right?

Yeah, he took off real fast.

Just because he took off. Yeah, he took off. That's why I thought that.

Right. But, Rachel, what drew you to like? want to even do that? What drew you to be like, oh my God, I want to be, I want to try that. zoo news, girl, news review, whatever.

It was a dare. I was staying with friends.

Zoo news.

I was staying with friends and I was doing odd jobs, and I was terrible at all of them. I was doing deliveries, but I had a car with an electrical problem. So every, unless I could leave my car running and it would not stall out, I could, I needed a jump every time I had to go.

You gotta park on a hill, pop the clutch.

It was really bad.

I have that problem too.

I was, I worked at, my friends had a coffee roasting company and I like installed some plumbing backwards in their plant and made a faucet blow up. And that didn't, like, I just had a really bad jobs. And so my friends who I was staying with said, oh, this morning show we listened to, they're doing this audition. And I auditioned live on the air and I got hired and got on the spot and started the next day. And I just loved it from the, I was just reading Associated Press, like rip and read, top of the hour news copy.

And you just couldn't get enough. Yeah. That's so cool.

Amazing.

But then, though, I'm gonna jump way forward. then. Now, flashing forward, you find yourself as a panelist on Tucker Carlson's show on MSNBC. And Howard, I don't remember him on MSNBC. You came on my radar when I was, I was a big, big, still am, an Olbermann fan.

He wasn't on the left. MSNBC wasn't really, I mean, Keith, is what made MSNBC liberal, right? He showed, he did great. He sort of came out as a liberal, did a great job, his incredible broadcasting talent. And he, with especially the special comments, created, cut the path through the jungle in terms of making MSNBC have kind of a liberal identity.

Post-bow tie, yeah. That's the delineation. I think that he became the Tucker that we all ended up knowing when he realized how well it paid to be that guy. And I know that's a cynical thing, but I truly believe that. I don't know the guy at all, but I'm really good at judging people harshly.

I'm real busy.

Yeah, I know.

Well, that's good.

He and Bill O'Reilly must be doing something. But thank God that Keith came along and exposed us all to you and was such a big advocate for you. So you ended up being on Keith's show quite a bit and then guest hosting for him quite a bit and enjoying it, and him enjoying you and MSNBC enjoying you. And then your show took off, yes?

Yeah. So it was interesting. One of the things that Keith did for me was he said, you should use my agent. And I never do that. I stop my agent from representing anybody who I compete against, but you should use my agent, which was a very generous thing.

Yeah. That's awesome. Congratulations. What a great, great accomplishment. But now you're leaving yourself open to pursue all the many other things that you're doing with the writing and the podcasting and et cetera.

We are such old times.

Or at least as much respect as you can muster.

What do you guys do to dumb it down?

We are, are you familiar with the Great British Baking Show?

Yes, of course. Yes.

I think it's the greatest television show ever made, but I also haven't watched much television. So I don't know, but it's my perfect drug. It's my perfect entertainment.

Does it get you then to the kitchen to try your talents at the same stuff?

Oh, no, I can only make drinks.

Do you read a book while you're watching TV?

What's your favorite drink? If someone's going to bring you a bottle of something as a gift, you're coming over to Rachel's house for dinner, what do they want to bring you? Is it wine? Is it?

Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of an, I don't drink vodka, but other than that, I'm pretty good. Oh, really? I'm pretty equal opportunity. But you know, I also feel like I used to be-.

Wait, wait, what's the vodka story? Was it, at what point? was someone holding your hair after vodka?

No, no, I just don't like it. It tastes like a cleaning product to me. You know how, like some people have that with cilantro? And people always say like, oh, vodka has no flavor. I'm like, it does.

You know, it's funny. I have this image of you and your partner, Susan, because our friend Eli is a friend of all of ours. He used to always say, we'd watch you when we were in Atlanta, whatever, and he'd say, I just want to go to Rachel's house and have coffee in the morning and have her. just, just talk me through everything that's going on and just make me feel okay and break everything down because there's so much information. I just want her, I just want to sit on her porch.

Also, that's not what coffee with me is like. It's a pretty nonverbal experience until I'm in the cup too.

Rachel, you know what I find interesting? What I really enjoy is watching you when you do, when you're on TV and you're talking about a subject, your cadence is second to none, because it's often quite broken up and you take pauses that I, what I've sort of gleaned from your pauses that you're thinking, which is extraordinary.

You're letting the teleprompter catch up though.

Well, yeah, it's suggesting that there's no prompter for whatever subject. that is that you're, you know, kind of musing on. And that we live in a world where people are so quick to have an answer. It's not just about being right. It's about how quick you can be right.

Yeah, very well said.

Well, it's, I mean, I think it's important not to blag through stuff that you don't know. If you don't know, it's okay. Like it better, don't make it up. It's okay. We can find somebody else who does have the answer if you don't.

Yeah.

And if somebody lies on the show, I don't invite them back. That I feel like I'm offering my audience a chance to hear from somebody, because I think they have something valuable to say.

All right, I'll do it.

Enhance our understanding of things, see?

Boy, you really misplayed that, Sean.

We'll be right back.

All right, back to the show.

Wait, Rachel, do you think because, and then we, I want to get back more to you, but do you think now is the time, more than ever, in a long, long time, for an independent to win next year? Because it doesn't seem like the, what I'm feeling is people aren't excited about either side. I'm excited about one side, but a lot of the people seem like they're not excited about either side. And I thought, well, gosh, what a perfect world we live in. What a perfect storm for somebody to break through right in the middle and run as an independent.

We really have a de facto two-party democracy, though. And so trying to bring about an independent candidacy at a practical level, all you're doing is deciding which of the two parties you want to have that proportion of the vote shaved off of. So if you bring on an independent who's going to appeal to democratic candidates, you're just making it more likely that President Biden will lose. And if you bring on an independent candidate who's more attractive to Republicans, you're making it more likely that probably Trump will lose. So it ends up in real politic just being that.

Will there ever be a world in this country where they will blow up the Electoral College, that system? Will that ever happen?

Maybe. I mean, there's all sorts of counter-majoritarian things, like things in our system that where the majority votes for a thing, but they still don't get it, that are starting to be really, I think, over-exploited by people who want different types of minority rule. So that's gerrymandering. That's the Electoral College. That's other forms of abuse of the legislative system.

And we're now seeing how vitally important it is to maintain control of the Supreme Court and what happens when you don't.

Yeah, and, you know, using underhanded and duplicitous and hypocritical tactics to get your majority on the Supreme Court pays off for the life of the justices. Turns out. Well, that's a bad precedent to set, because you've now set the bar that any means necessary for getting a justice onto the court is effectively justified by what the Republicans do.

Right, and we're not talking about necessarily... By the way, it should be noted to our listeners, who were put off by us talking in this way, we're not saying that having a conservative judge is bad. I'm really not suggesting it. If it's done within the framework of what is fair, then that's fine. What we're talking about is rigging the system to, you know, affect the outcome.

But unfortunately, it seems like we're having to start to sort of workshop and brainstorm what else we can do, now that fair is becoming less and less common in the political space. And do we take the bait and start playing by their rules and thus sacrificing our own values and ethics? Or do we continue on the high road and get comfortable with the losses? You know, I'm not sure what the future is gonna hold for that.

I feel like the lesson of history here is to have like one lodestar, which is protect democracy. And that means make sure that everybody knows and everybody believes, and we reify every way we can, that the way we solve problems in this country is through democratic process. And anything that is about, you know, what Will was saying about the, you know, the fair process of which justices end up on the Supreme Court. If you vote for a conservative president, part of what you are voting for is if there is a vacancy on the Supreme Court while that president is office, that president will appoint a conservative to the court or, conversely, with a liberal. You are voting for a liberal president.

That's right. And so to that, can you, I hate for you to make a prediction, but what do you think is the life, what's gonna be the lifespan of Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift? Is there any way that this makes it to the playoffs?

Right.

You know, it's a hard knocked life.

It's a tough one.

He's a very large man. He's a very large target. There's a lot of ways to make him.

You're good to avoid an answer on that one. Now, Rachel, I'm sure that there's a team of incredibly gifted people that you get to work with every day or maybe not every day now for your show, but what is your favorite part? I won't ask you to take us through your entire day, because I'm sure it's a lot, but is there a favorite part of the day that is potentially completely imploded when there's some breaking news and you got to toss it all out?

Part of the reason that I left doing five days a week and went to one day a week is that I felt like my thoughts were getting shorter, that I was starting to think in short thoughts without any, I wanted to think book length thoughts instead of tweet length thoughts. And now that I have this new schedule, I'm spending a lot of time and I'm working on a lot of projects that involve me reading a lot of books. And so I'm often kind of, I look like I'm going to get smothered by a collapsing pile of books about Nazis at any time of the day, but to have to dig myself out of my home library where I'm dug into something going on in the 1920s in Mexico, and then have to jump into like, wait, the bankruptcy court judge said what about Trump? Soho? Can be a little weird.

Yeah, so you must have an incredible team of researchers that can keep you up to date and or answer questions when you have them, about what are the legal ramifications of X, Y, or Z? I mean, it's probably never ending.

Well, MSNBC made a good decision. I mean, in the Trump era, everybody in the news had to become like a jailhouse lawyer. Like we all had to learn.

You mean the same way that we all became medical experts through the pandemic?

Yes, exactly. We all developed ERSAT's expertise, but MSNBC did a really good thing and they hired a bunch of lawyers, both as on-air correspondents, but also as off-air consultants, to help us process and understand and be correct about analyzing. You know, it used to be just Supreme Court decisions you'd have to deal with or an occasional, like true crime thing that captured people's attention. Now it's, you know, the president.

You might enjoy this. This is a little bit of a tangent. We can always cut it. About six months ago, I was in Atlanta with Eli and we got into an argument at breakfast over there at the OK Cafe, which is a terrific diner.

Picturing you and Eli in an argument is already funny.

Yeah, and our buddy, Bob. And we were sitting there and I said, I made the point that...

Was Chappie not there?

Chappie was... No, Chappie was not there. He was at the infield with Jurgen Klopp.

Sure. Oh, God.

And he finds out that for $100, we can get Alan Dershowitz to do a cameo. So we put in the message. Hey, everybody, just graduating from law school. It's kind of an inside joke. Tell everybody, Eli, about whether or not ignorance of the law is a defense.

So what did Alan say in the cameo?

He said, you know, I was just getting a massage.

I never took the clothes off. Well,

But he agreed with it. He said it's never, you know, ignorance of the law is never a defense.

Whether or not you're wearing your underpants.

Whether or not you're wearing your underpants. How fucking great is that?

That's hysterical.

Anyway, sorry.

We should use cameo more for inside.

Stuff like that. I know.

For settling inside jokes and arguments. How good is that?

It's a good idea.

I got one once from the guy from Insane Clown Posse.

Did you really?

That was really good. It was thanking me for having done a thing for a pal. But it was just this magnificent font of like every iteration of the F word I had ever heard used every other, like every possible way. It was like, it was, it was fantastic.

And you did not have a beef with any of the Juggaloos, right? That's what their followers are called.

I'm pro Juggaloos.

Is that true?

Yeah, it's true.

Oh, yeah. Do you know what it means to be anti-Juggalo? That'd be very bad.

Don't say that. Really?

Don't say it.

Rachel, when you're home and your pile of books, reading and stuff, is it something you and Susan chat about? Like, do you guys like, Susan's like, hey, honey, what book did you read today? Or is it something you completely do by yourself and she does this all by herself? and then you meet for dinner at the end and you talk about the day, but you don't talk about your books?

Pretty much the latter. Yeah, I mean, what I do, which is a horrible thing, is that we'll be out like in the woods on a dog walk or something. And I'll go, hey, do you want a Nazi story?

Jason knows.

She likes me, but she doesn't care.

Jason's well aware. Jason's well aware.

Yeah, exactly. And my daughters, they don't give it up either. They're like, they could not be less interested.

It's very good for you. It's very good for you.

The other day, Jay, the other day I was with Jason and one of his daughters, who I absolutely love. And I said, Jason was like, wait, what did you say? I'm like, Jason, I texted that to you like a week ago. And he goes, and I never responded. And I go, no.

Not true. I'm just, no, I just, I don't.

You're the fucking worst.

The ones that are important get the response.

T times, T times.

T times, T times, you've got to respond.

Rachel, if you ever wanted to get a response out of Jason, you just go, how's next Thursday at 10? look for you to tee off? And then he'll answer you, and then you've got him. And then you say the real thing.

I'm trying to stay occupied during a strike. You know, I'm trying to keep the brain fresh.

Sunday dinner when I was out of town, is that, it still happened? Dinner happened when I was out of town?

Oh, sure, yeah, life does keep going.

Fuck, man.

It's shocking.

Yeah.

Rachel, we love you. We can't thank you enough.

Such an honor to meet you. I can't believe I've never met you.

No, you're so cool.

Thank you for having me. You guys are really awesome. And I'm very, it makes me, I have to say, just briefly, a little earnestness. There's a lot of crappy podcasts that have a lot of listens in the world. And it makes me happy and heartened that you guys are so successful with this, because you guys are nice and interesting and kind.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, we feel the same about you. You've done so much for so many people. And I think you're doing, I think you're doing a great service to the world. So thank you. Thanks, guys.

Yeah, rest up. You've got a busy year ahead of you. Thank you for spending a little time with us.

Yeah, and one of these days, I'm going to stop you in New York and then we're going to have a proper meal.

Just have the van pull over and then just get out. It doesn't sound less creepy.

A little ether cloth. You just put it right over my nose and throw me in the van. That's how everybody else does it.

That's hysterical.

Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you, Rachel.

Thank you so much. Thank you.

Bye-bye.

Wow, JB.

Well, that was... Yeah, that was a good one. That's the first time my pit started sweating before we started the podcast.

Yeah, I was a little nervous too.

But you didn't even know who it was, did you?

No, when she came on, I was nervous. Oh, yeah. When she came on, I was like...

That was all-star shit, right?

That is.

She's so fucking smart.

It's so scary to ask anything that you're going to, because I'm going to sound like a dumb shit.

Well, but I mean, that's, I think...

You don't need Rachel Maddow for that, Sean?

Well, we have the title of the podcast to cover all that. We're not claiming to be investigative journalists.

Nobody's having us on MSNBC, okay? That's true.

But I'm so glad the way that that went, because I knew that, obviously, it's kind of baked in that it's going to be political, and we try not to be overly political on this show. But so it was nice to have a conversation with somebody who is so political, to have it not be kind of burn it all down.

Well, and also not just political, but also really fucking smart.

Yeah, really smart. And also, like, as I said, in the thing, it's like, it's not left versus right and right versus left. It's really more about... Everybody's entitled to have their thing. Yeah, it's just about like, let's...

That's it. That's it.

Yeah.

And she does make the medicine go down real easy, too. I just love the way she shapes stories and points of view. And she helps my brain get a little bit calmer, based on the way that she's able to articulate some of the stuff that's going on and maybe some of the things we might need to watch out for.

How much... You watch her every night or when she's on?

When she's on, yeah. But I'm watching Nicole Wallace and Chris Hayes. I know.

How much more do you think that you could get from it if you had less gummy? What I'm trying to do is gummy to news.

I'm trying to be fancy there. There's a combo there that I'm trying to get right.

What's the right mix?

What's the perfect? I'm not able to really comprehend a lot of what I'm listening to or looking at. So there needs to be a tonnage of information coming in.

You're high as bejesus.

It's not true, listener. He's really taking a run at me.

I took one on Sunday. It was delicious and it was amazing.

You had one?

I had one on Sunday with Jay. Jason didn't have one. I had one.

Yeah, right. Yeah, no, I watched.

Yeah. You watched me. You watched me.

So you guys did have dinner on Sunday without me? Yes.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And we do it again too. Next time you want to go out of town and not be with us.

But you know what? Like to your point, Will. Here we go.

Here we go. Fuck me. Nobody... Nobody...

I didn't see you coming a mile away.

Everybody... It doesn't matter.

Bygones!

Bygones!

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